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**Tom Ezell** · 12-25-2006, 08:40 AM

Re: Musket Help

Looks like it may be one of the post-1860s weapons that the Brits provided to their Indian or Asian colonies... These pop up from time to time on the internet or in various markets. One of the last large batches a couple of years ago came from Nepalese war surplus.

I'm not sure what the collectors' value is for these models, but they're not really useful for reenacting.

**BobbyHughes** · 12-25-2006, 10:00 AM

Re: Musket Help

oh, wasnt planning on using it.... just trying to figure out what it is, and try to fix it up a little and then its a wall hanger... I was just jazzed to recieve an original percussion Enfield. It may not have CW provenance, but it is still pretty cool.

**Fenianboy** · 12-25-2006, 10:59 AM

Re: Musket Help

A great number of Enfield marked smoothbores came through Navy Arms some time back.They used to sell extra locks in their catalog when they were still here in Jersey.They are now in Martinsburg W>Va. Any enfield requires some fitting but this may provide a start. Merry Christmas. Bud Scully 13th NJ and 69th NY:)

**jgr1974** · 12-25-2006, 11:06 AM

Re: Musket Help

Do you have any pics???

**Tom Ezell** · 12-25-2006, 11:44 AM

Re: Musket Help

Originally posted by BobbyHughes View Post

oh, wasnt planning on using it.... just trying to figure out what it is, and try to fix it up a little and then its a wall hanger... I was just jazzed to recieve an original percussion Enfield. It may not have CW provenance, but it is still pretty cool.

These old colonial guns have been turning up in the strangest places over the past four or five years. Some of the troops deployed to Afghanistan report having been shot at with these old Enfields, as well as being able to pick them up in the local flea markets there...

**BobbyHughes** · 12-25-2006, 11:54 AM

Re: Musket Help

Ill be posting pics as soon as I can.... thanks for all the help so far! Merry Christmas

**Curt Schmidt** · 12-25-2006, 01:54 PM

Re: Musket Help

Hallo!

Not much to base a sound opinion on... ;-)

But it sounds like it is either a smoothbore musket Pattern of 1858 or Pattern of 1859 for India.

They are much like the Pattern of 1853, but are in brief and to over-generalize, a smoothbore .656 with a simple rear sight. They are also identifiable by the markings of a capital "I" and government broad arrow on the lockplate and butt.
And, often, they are also seem to be "heavily" stamped with "Hindi" charaters.. (as are their bayonets)

It was knda/sorta, official British policy not to much "accentuate" the differences between British and their "native" infantry. However, there are 10 or so different patterns of muskets, rifle-muskets, rifles, and carbines made for the "India Service."

Yes, with the rise of the price of ACW guns, in the past few years these "India" service guns "have been found" and released on the domestic US market. I am rusty, but I think Atlanta Cutlery did a "batch" of guns a few years ago, and if I remember correctly a few "mail order catalog" firms like "Cheaper Than Dirt" or was it "Sportsman's Something Or Other had them listed.

Curt

Oh, the round stock cartouche indicates where it was made, in this case the Royal Manufactory at Enfield. The number below the circle or roundle indicated the class of the weapon. "1" for first class was issued to regular troops. "2" for second class went to volunteers and militia. "3" for 3rd class went for recruit drilling in regimental depots... Any first class arm that was greatly repaired was restruck from a "1" to a "2." Further repairs were noted by adding additional "2's"

**BobbyHughes** · 12-25-2006, 02:12 PM

Re: Musket Help

Curt,

Thanks! you actually were alot of help, sans pictures... Im gonna try to get some up later today!

I thought it might be a 59 India. No Hindi markings, just the ones listed

Thanks again!

**Richmond Depot** · 12-25-2006, 02:54 PM

Re: Musket Help

Or maybe it is a genuine War Trophy. Brought back from Afghanistan by a US Serviceman or woman .

Merry Christmas.

**Fenianboy** · 12-25-2006, 05:09 PM

Re: Musket Help

Have you seen the photo of Mark Elrod with the Pattern 1858 Musketoon and bayonet he found in an arms cache in Cambodia( or Viet Nam) while he was serving over there?Bud scully 13th Nj and 69Ny

**jgr1974** · 12-25-2006, 05:31 PM

Re: Musket Help

I have that book, and seen the pic!!! If I am not mistaken, it was a Cook and Brother's as well!!!

I have seen a number of afghani firearms in the market lately! Many of the websites I visit have at least one for sale daily! Some of them are true firearms, but others are just scrap materials put together for the "tourists". Some have been made many years ago so look as if they have some age to them!!!

If I am not mistaken, there was a post of a couple GI's on this forum with an "Enfield" awhile back. I do believe the market has been flooded with these items from the cache of Nepal as well as the war in the sandbox. Not just military personel send them home, there are a ton of civilian workers (some call "mercenaries") who are over there as well.

Be careful and know what you are buying, if you want a relic from a rebel, make sure it came from the lower 13 of the United States!

GOD BLESS YOU ALL!!! TO THE TROOPS HERE AND OVERSEAS-THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE!!! MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL!!!!!

**BobbyHughes** · 12-26-2006, 07:25 AM

Re: Musket Help

Just wanted to make clear that I am not stating that this weapon has WBTS provenance, or making statements about its provenance in the slightest. I was flabergasted just to recieve an original to the period arm, and more so that my wife saw it sitting in a thrift store in Canton, GA and new right off that it was some sort of Enfield, and figured I would like it.

It is in rather poor condition, the wood is good, but the overall weapon has a deep chocolate brown patina, and some deep pitting near the cone, and as mentioned before the lock, lock screws and escutcheons (round ear) are missing.... did someone use them for parts, I dont know. I just think it is a rather nice curio from our time frame, and will look pretty nice on the wall. Hoping to find a lock for it, and at least have it whole and complete to mount in a shadow box .

Again, it isnt a CW related arm, but its a neat example of a member of the Enfield family.

**jgr1974** · 12-26-2006, 12:54 PM

Re: Musket Help

Mr. Hughes,

I did not intend to offend! I was merely making my opinions. I am open to whatever opinions others may have! Just sitting here thinking, it could also be a Bannerman special!

In my opinion, the gun sounds absolutely worthless, and you should send it directly to me here in Illinois so I could properly dispose of it! No, just kidding! If the price was right, I would have snagged it as well! It sounds like your wife made a great find! I would kiss my wife and buy her a new diamond i she came trudging home with a gun!!!

PS I see you are a member of Birge's sharpshooters, do you guys carry the Dimmick rifles? I have a special interest for this unit. Seems Illinois had some real obscure types! I have a friend with a shop down near Fort Donelson Battlefield. It is not unusual to dig a "picket bullet" there. These are believe to be from the Birge's men!

**Richmond Depot** · 12-26-2006, 01:08 PM

Re: Musket Help

I know Mark Elrod and spoke with him at length about that photo and the weapon in the picture. It was not a Cook and Bros. It was a Tower or some other variant. he traded the weapon while " in country" for a then new and more popular reel to reel tape recorder. It ( the Enfield)was part of a Cache recoverd in Cambodia in 1970 during the offensive.

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