Rome and the Confederacy Article

[BishopLynch]

Pards,
An interesting article on the South and the Roman Catholic Church that just came out. Enjoy.

http://www.remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/archive-2007-01150rebels_in_rome.htm

[Bivouac_of_the_Dead]

Re: Rome and the Confederacy Article

...so the Pope easily could have considered the South the fertile place in America to spread the Catholic Faith. He may have also seen the South as a sovereign nation which would perhaps one day faithfully follow the Church’s teachings.

"Could have" and "may have." There's some credibility being strained in what is obviosly a very biased article that is looking hard for any straw that may indicate the Vatican looked more favorably on the the Confederacy than the Union.

I don't think all those Irish Catholics in blue might have agreed with that, particularly one Peter Welsh of the Irish Brigade, a devout Catholic who had deep convictions about the Union: http://www.amazon.com/Irish-Green-Un.../dp/0823211649

Pax Vobiscum.

[BishopLynch]

Re: Rome and the Confederacy Article

I agree that it is speculation, but I believe that the author is alluding to the fact that as the South was an agrarian based society it would be more in line with Catholic ideals. Therefore, theoretically, it would be a place where the Catholic Faith would be able to be more easily spread and accepted. This idea is pushed by other authors in various articles on the same subject.
However, even though the South's social structure was closer to the Catholic ideal than the North, it is still a matter of speculation whether or not a "Catholic" South would have been achievable.
We must also remember that it was those in the South who took the Pope's title for Jeff Davis as recognition, not Rome. Pius IX, when confronted with the idea of an official recognition of the South, did not go one way or the other, but left the topic alone. Official recognition by Pius IX could have caused turmoil among American Catholics, even Catholics abroad, as there were Catholics fighting on both sides. This was not something that the Pope was willing to risk.

[Bivouac_of_the_Dead]

Re: Rome and the Confederacy Article

it is still a matter of speculation whether or not a "Catholic" South would have been achievable.

I will speculate the South was no more a fertible plain for Catholicism than anywhere else in mostly-Protestant America. The Catholic Church was the single largest church in America at the time of the Civil War, but only if one keeps in mind the plethora of non-Catholic Christian denominations. The "papists" were viewed with suspicion just about everywhere.

My own research indicates that Catholics always seemed to fair better in relatively non-agrarian, semi-industiralized Southern settings like the seaport cities of New Orleans, Mobile, Savannah, Charleston and Baltimore. On the other side of the coin, Northern rural towns and small cities were more Catholic-freindly. Know-Nothing-style resistance in the bigger Northern cities was a real threat to the large Catholic congregations. The public school-enforced reading of the Protestant version of the bible by Catholic children caused all kinds of havoc in the North prior to the war and got a good deal of papal exposure. It directly led to the creation of Catholic parochial schools. Things in the South were relatively quieter for Catholics but they sure didn't stay that way in the post-war years.

I attended Mass at a wonderful little Catholic parish in Selmer, TN last summer, not too far from Shiloh. They had an interesting history. Post-war attempts to start a parish by local folks, mostly of Irish descent, were met with a great deal of violence from, you guessed it, the Ku Klux Klan. They really didn't get the parish up and running steady until the 1940s!

One way or another, the Catholic history of the Civil War is a wide-open field for any aspiring historian to explore in depth.

Pax Vobiscum.

[mtvernon]

Re: Rome and the Confederacy Article

Hey You Two,

I just found this thread and thought I'd add a little (perhaps). First of all, I'm assuming you're acquainted with Michael Matt, Greg? As someone with a long-held interest in what is now called the Extraordinary Rite, I know the Remnant and it's safe to say they aren't the final word on accuracy in reporting or perspective. They clearly have a very pointed agenda and make it any way they can. I'm not accusing them of lying, but the Matt's and The Remnant have historically seen the world through decidedly pre-conciliar glasses. I'm not saying I always disagree with them, but I would not rely on them for comprehensive and objective research or perspective, not that I'm saying you are.

Also, as regards Pope Pius IX and the view that the South was, culturally, more aligned with contemporary Catholic teaching, one can't apply our relatively newfound sensibilities to people who weren't alive to conduct or benefit from subsequent discoveries/refinements in philosophy and theology. At that time, debate still existed within the Church regarding whether or not (as Aristotle and, I think, St. Thomas asserted) natural slavery existed in nature. If it did/does, those of us who have more "superiority" not only can, but should be the masters of those who are deemed too dependent and slavish to care for themselves. Looking at world culture, circa 1860's, one can certainly forgive a man of good will the notion that natural slavery did indeed exist when looking around the world.

By the way, you two likely know more about this than I do, but since it didn't present in the thread I thought I'd bring it up. Please correct any mistakes I make.

To the point which brought me here, let me ask this: As Catholics, and knowing that on one hand you have Pope Pius IX writing supportive letters to Davis, on the other hand you have Father Corby at Gettysburg, what is the real skinny on Catholics in the Civil War? Obviously it was a divided issue, but did the goings on of Rome, i.e. the aforementioned letter, have any discernible effect on recruitment/desertion of Union Catholics? Do either of you know of a definitive work on the subject?