Who was the fellow.....

[1stMaine]

Comrades,

Sometime back there was a series of threads about a fellow who was travelling around trying to buy up artillery from towns, parks, etc. He said he had a museum, etc, and always tried to convince the legit owners to sell to him "quietly". There was quite some discussion here, and a few links to the articles. Anyone remember him, or remember the articles, url's, etc?

I ask because he may have surfaced again up here in Maine and I'd like to compare some notes.

Respects,

[Dignann]

Re: Who was the fellow.....

Tim,

His name was Bruce Stiles. The situation you have up there sounds very different. Do an on-line search under his name and you'll find the 2005 newspaper articles.

Eric

[FlatLandFed]

Re: Who was the fellow.....

Friend Tim,
If it is Stiles or one of his minions, do not let folks in Maine be fooled. The usual tactic is to buy a tube outright with the promise that the seller also will get a similar reproduction for their park or cemetery. "So, everybody wins!"

Most are not aware that many but not all WBTS surplus cannons, &tc were "loaned" by the government to veterans organizations such as the G.A.R. and as such are not the property of a town hall or local cemetery board, but instead often are overseen by organizations such as the Sons of Union Veterans of the Civil War (legal heirs to the G.A.R.) and in some cases the VFW or American Legion, &tc. Our goal is to keep everygreen the memory of the original Boys in Blue, not let some fat cat hoard what were meant to be monuments to the veterans' struggles and triumphs.

Please encourage folks to make sure, first, who actually owns/is responsible for these artifacts and, second, what is the will of the true owners re selling these historical objects.

Sorry to rant, but this guy will do anything for a buck -- and there are plenty of folks who are willing to provide many of the same, without regard to history or propriety.

Regards,
Paul Hadley
(Commander, Dept of Neb, SUVCW)

[1stMaine]

Re: Who was the fellow.....

Comrades,

Although, upon the surface, the event(s) up here in Maine and the past ones elsewhere seem unrelated, it is the conduct of the alledged "finder" in Maine who has my interest piqued. He "discovered" these two Napoleons by accident, he claims, although anyone who lives within 100 miles of their sees them as they drive by. He approached the owners (in this case an American Legion Post) and offered to buy them to "protect" them from further "damage", although they are quite well taken care of. He was visibly upset when he returned a few days later and discovered that the tubes had been polished bright, claiming they were being ruined by removing the "protective green oxidation" from the barrels. Right.

Anyway, both the reporter who did the original story, the Legion folks, and myself and several others smell something fishy here. This dealer admitted that he would not actually keep the guns but sell them to someone who could preserve them.

I'm just looking to develop some leads in this case, seeing how it's been awhile since we've had any good cannon-buying artiocles. perhaps those fellows were just laying low for awhile, waiting for the dust to blow over. I don't know.

What I DO know, is that these guns belonged to the Federal Government and were housed at the VA Hospital at Togus for many decades. They were apparently legitimately loaned to the Legion for display. Togus retains the second pair, and they are well cared for, although the wood was replaced sometime ago.

Respects,

[FlatLandFed]

Re: Who was the fellow.....

Looking back in the archives, the SUVCW officially condemned Mr. Stiles back in the 1990s for similar behavior.

I have forwarded a link to this thread to James Pahl, Commander in Chief, with the plea that he have some of the national memorials officers work with you folks "on the ground" to keep this leach away or at least at bay.

Regards,
Paul Hadley
Missing Sebago Lake Mess

[Dignann]

Re: Who was the fellow.....

It sounds like the antiques dealer isn't a threat, but that it's a dispute between the American Legion post and the VA.


Civil War cannons spark ownership dispute

Associated Press
January 23, 2007

RICHMOND, Maine --Two Civil War cannons that sit in front of an American Legion post in Richmond have ignited a dispute over who owns the antiques and where they belong.

Todd Violette, an antiques dealer who spotted the 12-pound Napoleon cannons after making a wrong turn on a back road, says the cannons are a part of history that belong to the public and need to be cared for.

The Togus Veterans Affairs Medical Center, from where the cannons were removed decades ago, says it is the rightful owner.

Leaders of the Emerson-Lane American Legion Post 132 say the cannons aren't going anywhere. The veterans hospital, they say, gave up ownership long ago.

Violette, who owns Violette Antiques and Collectibles Inc. in Winslow, said the cannons were two of only 370 that were manufactured by Boston-based Henry N. Hooper & Co. for use by the Union Army in the Civil War. They were cast in 1863 and could be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, he said.

After spotting the cannons two years ago, Violette started a one-man campaign to have them put in a safe place. He said they should not be sitting outside the Legion hall deteriorating from exposure to the elements.

"They obviously don't know how to take care of these," he said. "(The cannons) need to be in the Maine State Museum."

Larry Bond Jr. said he took the cannons from the Togus veterans hospital to the Richmond post about 35 years ago. Bond, an 80-year-old Legion member and an Army veteran, said a Togus employee who was also a Legionnaire told him to come pick up the cannons, which he did in his dump truck.

They've been at the Legion post ever since.

After Violette saw the antiques, he began a quest to have them moved elsewhere. He contacted the National Park Service, a state representative and Togus police, and wrote to U.S. Sen. Susan Collins.

Members of the Legion post have also sent letters to Maine's congressional delegation in an attempt to keep the cannons they see as being rightfully theirs. The cannons have become such a part of the post that members have threatened to chain themselves to weapons if anyone attempts to remove them.

Complicating the matter is that Togus wants the cannons back. Hospital spokesman Jim Doherty released a statement last week saying the facility would be contacting the American Legion post requesting the return of the cannons.

That's not going to happen, according to Lester Dearborn, the commander of the Legion post and an employee at Togus. He said Togus lost ownership of the cannons decades ago and is only now showing interest because of their possible resale value.

"They weren't doing it because they wanted to do something for the veterans," Dearborn said. "They were wanting them because they were interested in what they could get for them."

But Violette said the cannons need to be sheltered to preserve them.

"These cannons are not being taken care of; they're being destroyed by the elements," he said. "They need to be put in a museum before they are stolen or end up in someone's private collection."

http://www.boston.com/news/local/maine/articles/2007/01/23/civil_war_cannons_spark_ownership_dispute/

Eric

[1stMaine]

Re: Who was the fellow.....

Eric,

What the AP reports, and what's been going on up here are somewhat different. The guns are one section of two sections that Togus had for well over a hundred years. Although the barrels and all of the iron are original to them, the carriages and wheels were replaced back around the time of the centennial. They are not fully correct, but the original ones were used as patterns for the new peices.

These guns were partially given to the Legion Post because Togus only wanted one pair to display at the flag pole. Those are kept in wonderful conditions, the tubes bright, the vents clear, and the threads still present for the forward sights. Although displayed out of doors, in Wintertime they are moven indoors to keep them out of the elements. The guns at the Legion Post are alsowell maintained, and are in no danger of being damaged, unless this dealer gets his hands on them.

The dealer, Mr. Violette, has stated to the local reporters that his aim was to purchase the guns and resell them, and all of his writing to the NPS, Togus, and our good Senator, is simply smoke to try and get the guns returned to Togus so that he can then purchase them.

However, he has a long battle on his hands now that all of this has gotten out. His story has changed over the past week, dependin upon which paper he was talking to, or which agency, etc, and folks are starting to compare notes. I had a lengthy conversation today with one of the reporters who interveiwed Mr. Violette, and the reporter was adamant about the dealer's intent to acquire the guns to turn a profit, NOT to preserve the guns.

What piques my interest was that the dealer claimed to have someone willing to buy the guns from him, preserve them, and put them on display in a museum he runs. Sound familiar?

All I'm doing is trying to help connect the dots. Mr. Violette has only money on his mind, and even if the guns WERE to be returned to the Togus VA Hospital, there are many stages they would have to go through before they could be declared available for sale.

Respects,

[ScottCross]

Re: Who was the fellow.....

Mr. Hadley is correct, the vast majority of Civil War era cannons are still the property of the United States Army. Most of the pieces that you see on courthouse lawns, cemeteries, and etc., were loaned from the Ordnance Department to cities and veterans groups. Most are documented in the Annual Ordnance Reports. It is illeagal to buy, sell or trade in them. I had to deal with a situation here in the town where I live. Our city guns are documented as loans and a private developer who purchased the land where they were on display attempted to sell them. I contacted the Army, who was very interested in prosecuting. It did not come back to that, but it shows that the Army is STILL very interested in these loaned pieces.

[mladair]

Re: Who was the fellow.....

I nearly had a run in with Stiles myself over the past couple of years. Just as we were starting a restoration project here in town, he contacted the city wanted to know about our two "old cannon." When he found out about our project, his comment was "too bad, I don't have examples of those in my collection." really! I have the emails from our city manager!

While I'm not a lawyer, I would hope in this situation that possession is not 9/10ths the law. Unless they can show a clear deed of conveyance, then they probably belong to the Govt, on loan to the community.

The SUVCW has tried to take a strong stance on this in the past. It's amazing how none of these articles seems to mention that in many instances, we, the SUVCW, are the legal caretakers. They always seem to focus on the "poor collector."

Attached is a press release issued by the SUVCW last year. We were encouraged to pass it along to any communities that may have cannon or ordnance. I post it here hoping that it may provide useful to somebody.

------------
Matt Adair
Dept. of Michigan, SUVCW

[ephraim_zook]

Re: Who was the fellow.....

"He was visibly upset when he returned a few days later and discovered that the tubes had been polished bright, claiming they were being ruined by removing the "protective green oxidation" from the barrels. Right."

I'm not a chemist, but I do know that copper and copper alloys such as bronze and brass are protected from penetrating corrosion by verdigris (copper carbonate, the green coating that you see on such metals). When we built a new library on campus about 12 years ago with a great copper-roofed dome, the builders offered to hasten the verdigis process chemically. The budget wouldn't allow for it so we've been patiently waiting for the roof to green up naturally.

Ron Myzie