Bowie Knives and Modern Laws

[Hank Trent]

While researching stuff in the "WTB: Bowie Knife" thread, I came across something that hadn't occurred to me before.

I know that reenactors can avoid modern concealed carry laws for pistols, due to having repro or original pre-1890s guns that don't usually meet the definition of firearms. But what's the situation with Bowie knives?

It appears that it's illegal to carry concealed Bowie knives, specifically, in many states, without a permit. Some states have exceptions, like Tennessee's intelligent exemption for theatrical performances, but others just say no, period. Trivia fact: the laws started appearing on the books in the 1830s, so this is no modern knee-jerk liberal trend.

I carry a modern hunting knife on my belt when camping, but it's never concealed because I wear a short jacket.

But at reenactments, with a Bowie knife on my belt, I'd be breaking the law in some states every time I buttoned my frock coat, and revealing the fact that I'd done so everytime I wanted to slice some bacon.

So, um, what do reenactors do? Do people (and cops) just "understand" even at downtown living histories? Do you only wear a knife at private events and have to be extra careful removing it before straying from the event site? Do you get a concealed weapon permit?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[cprljohnivey]

Re: Bowie Knives and Modern Laws

I have never seen the need to own a knife larger than my pocket knife so is not an issue for me.

[MissouriStateGuard]

Re: Bowie Knives and Modern Laws

Mr. Trent,

What a great question! I guess we just tend to take some things for granted when we arrive on site with our standard impedimentia.

First of all let me say I am not a law enforcement officer, and I have not studied the law. In my 20+ years of assisting in living history events at local, state and federal sites I have had no issues arrise from carrying arms, concealed or otherwise. I think the safest course of action is to work with the sponsoring agency to insure carrying a weapon will provoke no undue responses. Even when the event is sponsored by a civic group they should have a better working relationship with local law enforcement than the attendees.

The one instance of law enforcement involvement I know of involved a newly commissioned visitor protection ranger at a national battlefield. Despite the fact the site had a long established LH program, he had not been appraised of it and was totally unfamiliar with the concept of living history and historic weapons demonstrations. When two volunteers (dressed in period civilian clothing) came walking towards him carrying double barrel percussion shotguns he drew down on them and ordered them to drop their weapons. It was a scary situation that was quickly defused with prompt obedience and explanatory dialogue.

One point may need to be raised. Even if a reproduction M1849 pocket dragoon does not meet the firearm definition of the National Firearms Act of 1934, this does not mean it will not be considered a "weapon" by a law enforcement officer. Sure it's an 'antique,' but does it present a perceivable threat to the officer or the public? Most law enforcement texts define a deadly weapon as "any device designed to produce death or serious bodily injury," to include knives, pellet guns, stun guns, clubs, saps, etc. I think a black powder revolver and/or a bowie with a 9-inch blade would more than meet this requirement- especially to a law enforcement officer who simply sees a pistol and a knife. With knives I believe the blade length is usually limited to 3 inches for classification as a pocket knife- anything larger and it must be worn in open view. Still, if the officer asks if you have any weapons on you he isn't necessarily concerned with blade length and it would be wise to mention that little orange-peeler in your change pocket.

I don't know of a way to insure full compliance with the law given the different state requirements you mention, as well as federal regulations. I think the best response is clear communication with event staff and situational awareness. If we are wearing a weapon (concealed or otherwise) in what can clearly been seen as an interpretive function, and we're using it and handling it in a safe manner, I don't think we have much to worry about. However if we're walking into a school, bank, courthouse, bar, etc., with no "official-looking" escort, and a revolver and/or knife tumbles out from under our frock and crashes to the floor, that tends to attract the wrong sort of attention.

I hope this is of some interest. Perhaps a commissioned AC-regular with a law enforecement pedigree can chime in with a more fact-based answer.

V/R,
Kip Lindberg

[WhiskeyBent]

Re: Bowie Knives and Modern Laws

I can say as a Deputy Sheriff in North Carolina of almost 9 years that you shouldn't run into any problems unless the people running the event have specific rules against the carry of concealed knives with a blade over 6" in length (NC). Even then, the event coordinater would have to go to the Deputies or security and tell them that they need to be on the lookout for these knives. Most deputies wouldn't even look twice at a bowie at an event. I would be suprised to hear of any accounts that someone was arrested or cited for carrying a concealed weapon at an event. Unless it was a modern handgun and they didn't have a permit. If worst came to worst I would say they would ask you to put the knife in your vehicle, but I doubt any Deputy or security would even tell you to do that....... I will have one and I won't think twice about carrying it in my knapsack or inside my coat. Hope this helps.

Aaron Meredith

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Bowie Knives and Modern Laws

Hallo!

A most excellent question!!!

There are a maze of federal, state, and worst yet local laws governing knives!

A little historical sample, and then I'll come forward..

Act of Congress of July 27, 1866, which is still on the books [Title 46 U.S. Code, Section 710], for merchant sailors...

"Carrying sheath knives.

"No seaman in the merchant service shall wear any sheath knife on shipboard. It shall be the duty of the master of any vessel registered, enrolled, or licensed under the laws of
the United States, and of the person entering into contract for the employment of a seaman upon any such vessel, to inform every person offering to ship himself of the
provisions of this section, and to require his compliance therewith, under a penalty of $50 for each omission..."

And I believe up to WWII, U.S. Navy sailors were allowed pocket knives or only square tipped blades... Mutiny and murder... ;-)

Another federal ban is on switchblades...

Some cities have exact knife related ordinances. Most will usually refer to type of knife and blade lengths. I have encounterd 6 inch as well as 4 inch limits. (A potential "pain" when I am carrying or transporting 9 inch bladed 18th century belt knives... But, that is not a Big City street thing.. ;-) )
Most though put knives in a broad "concealed weapons," "dangerous weapons," or "deadly weapons" statutes. (So blade length is not always the factor. Currently look at post 911 "box cutters"...)
A few are still on the books and are specific to Bowie type knives and dirks from frontier times. Most go back either to the anarchist scares of the 1880's, or the immigrant and anarchist scares of the 19 "teens." And usually attack the knives rather than the users- not entirely politically new today...

Most of these laws are purposely ambiguous, their wording vague, or their terms poorly defined. This is intentional as to give law enforcement officers and court judges wide discretion.

Over the years, the few "encounters" I have had have been good and decent officers exercising their best judgement, knowleldge of the law or ordinances, what they perceived I was doing and why, and most all have been intrested in the "history." A few really "dug" flintlcoks...
HOWEVER, I have stories of a few friends not so fortunate. (These are arrest first, and sort out at the jail or in court later...)

Here is a sample I had from Michigan, while researching a post that one "had to be going hunting to have a hunting knife on their person or in their car:"

Michigan -750.226... Carrying with unlawful intent
any person who, with intent to use the same unlawfully
against the person of another, goes armed with a pistol
or other firearm or dagger, dirk, razor, stiletto, or
knife having a blade over 3 inches in length, or any
other dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument, shall
be guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment in
the state prison for not more than 5 years or by a fine
of not more than 2,500 dollars.

- 750.226a. Pocket knife opened by mechanical device...
Any person who shall sell or offer to sell, or
any person who shall have in his possession any knife
having the appearance of a pocket knife, the blade or
blades of which can be opened by a flick of a button,
pressure on a handle or other mechanical contrivance shall
be guilty of a misdemeanor... [Also, concealed carry may
be charged as a felony under 750.227.] The provisions of
this section [750.226a] shall not apply to any one-armed
person carrying a knife on his person in connection with
his living requirements.

- 750.227. (1) A person shall not carry a dagger, dirk,
stiletto, a double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument of
any length, or any dangerous weapon, except a hunting
knife adapted and carried as such, concealed on or about
his or her person, or whether concealed or otherwise in
any vehicle... except in his or her dwelling house [or]
place of business... (3) A person who violates this
section is guilty of a felony...

- 750.222a Double-edged, nonfolding stabbing instrument defined.
(1) As used in this chapter, 'doubled-edged, nonfolding
stabbing instrument' does not include a knife, tool,
implement, arrowhead, or artifact manufactured from stone by
means of conchoidal fracturing.
(2) Subsection (1) does not apply to an item being transported
in a vehicle, unless the item is in a container and inaccessible
to the driver.
History: Add. 2000, Act 343, Imd. Eff. Dec. 27, 2000 .


- 259.80f Possessing... certain items in sterile area of airport;
(1) An individual shall not possess, carry, or attempt to possess
or carry any of the following in a sterile area of a commercial airport:
(a) Firearm.
(b) Explosive.
(c) Knife with a blade of any length.
(d) Razor, box cutter, or item with a similar blade.
(e) Dangerous weapon.
(2) Except as provided in subsection (3), an individual who
violates subsection (1) is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable
by imprisonment for not more than 1 year or a fine of not more
than $1,000.00, or both.
(3) An individual who violates subsection (1) while doing any of
the following is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for
not more than 10 years or a fine of not more than $10,000.00, or both:
(a) Getting on or attempting to get on an aircraft.
(b) Placing, attempting to place, or attempting to have placed on an
aircraft an item listed in subsection (1).
(c) Committing or attempting to commit a felony.
(4) [Exempts most officials]...
(7) As used in this section:
(a) 'Commercial airport' means an airport that has regularly
scheduled commercial flights to and from other destinations.
(c) 'Sterile area' means that term as defined in 14 C.F.R. 107.1.
History: Add. 2001, Act 225, Eff. Apr. 1, 2002 .

- 380.1313 Dangerous weapon found in possession of pupil...
(1) If a dangerous weapon is found in the possession of a pupil
while the pupil is in attendance at school or a school activity
or while the pupil is enroute to or from school on a school bus,
the superintendent of the school district or intermediate school
district, or his or her designee, immediately shall report that
finding to the pupil's parent or legal guardian and the local
law enforcement agency.
(2) If a school official finds that a dangerous weapon is in the
possession of a pupil as described in subsection (1), the school
official may confiscate the dangerous weapon or shall request a
law enforcement agency to respond as soon as possible and to
confiscate the dangerous weapon. If a school official confiscates
a dangerous weapon under this subsection, the school official
shall give the dangerous weapon to a law enforcement agency and
shall not release the dangerous weapon to any other person,
including the legal owner of the dangerous weapon. A school
official who complies in good faith with this section is not
civilly or criminally liable for that compliance...
(4) As used in this section, 'dangerous weapon' means a firearm,
dagger, dirk, stiletto, knife with a blade over 3 inches in length,
pocket knife opened by a mechanical device, iron bar, or brass knuckles.
History: Add. 1987, Act 211, Imd. Eff. Dec. 22, 1987 ;--Am. 1995,
Act 76, Eff. Aug. 1, 1995 .
Popular Name: Act 451

Again, IMHO, much in life depends upon the knowledge, understanding, mood, and zealousness of law enforcement officers as to what they know of the law, and how they
see and interpret your "intent."

Then again, I have known reenacting lads trying to hedge who carry/wear knives with blunt edges because they are just reenacting props or "jewelry." And I have known events that ban knives other than pocket knives...

As with many things, IMHO, know you laws. (Yes, that gets complicated when participating at events in half a dozen states, counties, and cities.)
But at the risk of making an invalid universal statement, I have never known a reenactor or living historian to be "busted" at an event.
But it has been a few years since Gettysburg NPS banned CW guns and bayonets from the site except at the "local" area of the living history function... ;-) :-)

Others' mileage may vary....

Curt
Not a Laywer Mess

Hank! I believe you are an Ohio lad. I will try to send you Ohio's poorly worded "code" by PM..

[kevin]

Re: Bowie Knives and Modern Laws

Good afternoon again,
Sorry about the duplicate message but I hit the wrong button on this confounded typing apparatus.
I am a deputy Sheriff in NYS. As such I can offer a glimpse of the NYS penal law as I have interpreted it.
First, remember that just like our hobby, interpretations can vary based on background and beliefs. As was already mentioned in another reply the penal laws are written fairley vaguely (?) to allow for flexible interpretation.
Second, a violation or infraction of the law does not always require an arrest be made especially if their is no "victim".
That being said allow me to move on to The Penal Law. In NYS a deadly weapon is considered "...any loaded weapon from which a shot, readliy capable of producing death or other serious physical injury, may be discharged...". It goes on to list switchblades, gravity knives and an small assortment of other knives that would not normally be found at a lh event. the next definition is for a dangerous instrument which is anything which under the circumstances it is used, attempted to be used or threatened to be used can cause serious physical injury or death. This includes knives but requires intentof some sort.
In laymans terms (and I don't profess to be an expert on this) you can carry your weapons but if they can't shoot someone they are generally not going to get you into trouble unless your trying to harm someone. I fyou carry a repro side arm, same thing: cap and powder are ok, add the lead and its illegal. Of course there are exceptions.
As far as knives, double bladed, gravity or spring loaded knives are a no-no. I for one only carry a pocket knife because that is all i've ever needed. Again intent comes into play here as well. If you are out for the weekend with your pards and part of your impression is a Bowie knife you should be all set. Don't threaten anyone with it and don't enter a regulated facility (ie:gov't building) with it.
I know that if I was on duty and saw a person dressed in the hottest styles from 1860 at a LH event with a gun or knife i would not be making an arrest. (its called discretion). Again I only have a working knowledge of NYS law but am confident that if you are at an organized event with a gun that does not have all three parts of the bullet or a knife which is comfortably on your hip or cutting your salt pork you should be more worried about the skeeters than getting arrested.
I hope my insight is helpful, but again I am not an expert. If there is someone that has a better understanding of NYS law (a lawyer or a police officer/ deputy with more than my 4 years on the job) i welcome your corrections to my thinking.

[Hank Trent]

Re: Bowie Knives and Modern Laws

Thanks to everyone for the replies. Here's the handy site where I found the state laws:

http://pweb.netcom.com/~brlevine/sta-law.htm

This all started when I was asked to portray the owner of a place where thieves and outlaws hang out, and I realized that at my age, I would have come of age around 1840ish, in the height of the bowie knife fighting era, and that would probably have set my self image as a knife fighter, for intimidation and self-defense. Not that I'm going to use the knife for anything more than normal chores at an event, but it would be a big part of "who I was," in those particular circumstances.

And once I invest in a good Bowie knife, there will probably be other opportunities where it would fit with who I'm portraying. But it looks like it's going to be a matter of, as everyone has said, dealing with it on an event-by-event, state-by-state basis, if the opportunity arises again.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[HighPrvt]

Re: Bowie Knives and Modern Laws

Another similar issue is medication.
It's unlawful to store prescribed meds in anything but their original containers, yet we are encouraged to do just that? Could eventually be a problem not only for the individual, but the event staff.

[Hargis, G. 5 A-1]

Re: Bowie Knives and Modern Laws

In TITLE 10 of the current Texas Penal Code — OFFENSES AGAINST PUBLIC HEALTH,SAFETY, AND MORALS — CHAPTER 46 (WEAPONS) defines an "Illegal knife" as a knife with a blade over five and one-half inches; hand instrument designed to cut or stab another by being thrown; a dagger, including but not limited to a dirk, stilletto, poniard; bowie knife; sword; or spear.
("Knife" means any bladed hand instrument that is capable of inflicting serious bodily injury or death by cutting or stabbing a person with the instrument.)

However the parts of Chapter 46 prohibiting the carrying of an illegal knife do not apply to an individual carrying a bowie knife or a sword used in a historical demonstration or in a ceremony in which the knife or sword is significant to the performance of the ceremony. (Tomahawks fall under the illegal club category. They are not mentioned in the Historical Demonstration/Ceremony loophole. No other knives are mentioned.)

[Utley]

Re: Bowie Knives and Modern Laws

Hank,

Good question and observation. As a law enforcement officer who has worked in a couple of different states and trains other l.e.o.'s across the country, I don't believe that you are going to run into a problem carrying this kind of knife and then concealing it under a period styled garment. Concealed carry laws are most often laws that are enforced as somewhat secondary laws, such as arresting a subject for illegal narcotics possession and then finding a loaded weapon on this person, or investigating a subject for a crime and finding them in possession of a concealed weapon. It is very rare that someone is arrested or cited for carrying a concealed weapon when that is the only offense that has been committed. It has to do alot with intent, as you wearing a period bowie knife under a frock coat, and using the knife in a period manner shows no intent for you to harm anyone else with the knife. In contrast, if a person was arrested for terroristic threatening or under investigation for such, or a person had several assault charges and convictions in their criminal history, then it could be very conceivable that such as person would be concealing a knife or other weapon with the intent of doing illegal activity or harm with that weapon. In such as case, that person would most likely be charged and arrested, whereas you would most likely not even receive a second glance. As you hopefully can see, yes, the law has been broken in both cases, but the situations are much different. Hope this helps.

[MickCole]

Re: Bowie Knives and Modern Laws

In addition to CW living history, I am a member of the Society for Creative Anachronism, which involves carrying live steel, and occasionally teach a class on knife laws, which can be an eye-opener for some. The laws vary considerably from state to state, and within states. For example, in New York, carrying a dirk, whether open or concealed, is presumptive evidence of an intent to use the dirk illegally. In the rare event of an arrest, the burden is on the person carrying the dirk to rebut the presumption, which should be fairly easy if it's being carried as part of a living history demo. The situation can be quite different if you decide to make a quick trip into town and forget you are carrying. My bottom line advice is that generally when in a jurisdiction other than your own it's a good idea to keep the live steel (other than a pocket knife) out of sight, preferably locked up, unless you are in persona on site. As others have said, unless you're foolish enough to get drunk and disorderly and challenge a LEO, the odds of being arrested or even cited at an event are pretty much slim to none.
Disclaimer: this is not legal advice. :)
Mick Cole

[Mike N]

Re: Bowie Knives and Modern Laws

Chiming in late here.

I'm a Police Patrol Sergeant (in ME) and former Deputy Sheriff (in MI). The best advice I can offer is if there is any question as to the legality of what you're carrying, research the specific laws of the jurisdiction you're going to be in. I know that doesn't answer the question, but as has been pointed out, there are a myriad of Federal, State and Local laws that might apply so there really is no quick and easy answer.

I would also caution folks about assuming that their antique guns or reproductions are exempt from firearms laws. The definition of what constitutes a "firearm" will vary from State-to-State. For example, in Maine, a "firearm" is "any weapon, whether loaded or unloaded, which is designed to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive and includes any such weapon commonly referred to as a pistol, revolver, rifle, gun, machine gun or shotgun. Any weapon which can be made nto a firearm by the insertion of a firing pin, or other similar thing, or by repair, is a firearm." (Maine Revised Statutes Annotated, Title 17-A, Section 2, Paragraph 12-A) Note that the law does not differentiate between antique and modern firearms.

While one would hope that common sense would prevail in dealings between reenactors and law enforcement, it's not hard to imagine a situation where an over enthusiastic cop or a crusading district attorney tries to hold someone to the letter if not the spirit of the law.

Better safe than sorry. State firearms laws are online at the NRA's website and generally on each State's Attorney General's website too. Know before you go!

Regards,

Mike Nugent