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  • The begining of the end?

    Gun ban takes shot at re-enactors, hunters

    Proposal would prohibit battlefield muskets and popular deer muzzleloaders

    Thursday, May 10, 2007
    BY BRIAN T. MURRAY
    Star-Ledger Staff

    The Continental Army and the Redcoats may have to go at each other with baseball bats in New Jersey.

    Revolutionary War buffs who annually re-enact historic conflicts like the Battle of Monmouth with muskets contend they will be disarmed by a proposed gun ban aimed at modern .50-caliber rifles that gun-control advocates call potential terrorist "sniper" weapons.

    A bill in the Assembly (A3998) states that antiques and replica guns will be excluded from the ban, but gun advocates say the measure caps that exclusionary rule at .60-caliber rifles -- which would ban muskets carried by many Civil War re-enactors, as well as the Continental Army. The proposed law also extends the ban to popular, one-shot "in-line" muzzleloaders used by thousands of deer hunters, angering many sporting organizations.

    "Just about every rifle carried on the American continent prior to 1855 were larger than .60-caliber," said Peter Hefferan of Wantage, a re-enactor and owner of Reactive Technologies, a private firearms consulting operation that works with law enforcement.

    "You'll wipe out re-enactors of the American Revolution. The whole concept of the re-enactment is history, and it is required that everything be accurate right down to the threading of the garments and the number of buttons, even the type of buttons," he said.

    The arrest this week of six suspected terrorists accused of trying to kill personnel at Fort Dix has provided some steam for the controversial gun-ban bill.

    "We have no intent of damaging or impeding the ability of hunters to hunt or re-enactors to do what they do," said Bryan Miller of Cease Fire New Jersey. "But every time we try to get people from the other side of this debate to help us draft a bill that works, they refuse. If this bill is flawed, it's their own fault."

    Still, Assemblyman Reed Gusciora (D-Mercer), a primary sponsor of the .50-caliber ban, said he hopes to clear up the dispute with hunters and re-enactors by introducing amendments today when the measure goes before the Assembly Law and Public Safety Committee in Trenton.

    "I just went to a tour of the Princeton battlefield today, so I understand the importance of the re-enactors and I plan to make sure the legislation is clearer so they are not affected. The amendments also will take out in-line muzzleloaders," Gusciora said.

    The target of the law is supposedly the civilian model of the .50-caliber BMG rifle, including the bolt-action as well as any semi-automatic version of the gun. Such rifles are capable of effectively firing a .50-caliber, fixed-ammunition round about 1,000 yards.

    A few trained military snipers have been able to kill enemy targets at much longer distances since the guns were invented in 1917.

    Large and cumbersome, they are not widely owned in the United States, have not been used in crimes and, according to firearms experts, cannot shoot down commercial airplanes as some claim. But gun-control activists contend the large-caliber rifle has no legitimate sporting purpose and that, in the era of home-grown terrorists, the time has come to ban the gun.

    "Especially in light of the events this week at Fort Dix, we need to remember we're now in a post-9/11 world where we have to be worried about someone misusing this gun," Gusciora said.

    The in-line rifles and the guns used by re-enactors are all muzzleloaders -- rifles that use technology dating back hundreds of years. They do not use modern ammunition cartridges.

    They are loaded by pouring black powder or powder pellets down the barrel of the rifle and then packing a bullet-type projectile down the barrel on top of the charge.

    Some old models are ignited by burning a wick, as with the famous "Three Musketeers." Most replicas and in-line models used today are ignited by pulling a trigger that brings a hammer down to ignite a powder cap or an open pan of black powder, which sends a spark into the chamber of the rifle to ignite the packed powder and projectile in the muzzle.

    The hammers are traditionally on the side of the rifle.

    But modern "in-line" muzzleloading rifles have the hammer directly at the rear of the gun -- largely to permit hunters to keep their powder dry in damp whether.

    About 9,200 deer are shot annually in New Jersey by muzzleloader hunters.

    "In-line muzzleloaders are one of the most popular deer guns around. This bill attacks hunting along with the .50-caliber gun they want to ban," said George Howard of the New Jersey Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs. "They almost banned shotguns the last time they tried a bill like this, and I don't know whether it's deliberate or they just don't know what they are doing."

    Legislative attempts to ban the .50-caliber BMG rifle have gone on for nearly a decade, but they also have stalled because of murky wording.

    "I understand the intent of the law, and I might even agree with that intent," said John Peppas of Long Valley, who is part of the Revolutionary War re-enactment group, the 4th Light Continental Dragoons. "But I don't understand why they can't place the prohibition on the guns they want to prohibit, and not our replicas."


    [SIZE=3][COLOR=DarkOliveGreen][B]Howard Davis[/B][/SIZE][/COLOR]
    [I]Retired[/I]

  • #2
    Re: The begining of the end?

    Observation: three of the "Fort Dix Six" are illegal immigrants who reportedly crossed the border via Mexico in the early 1980's. Oddly enough, the same fools who are pushing the NJ Assembly bill have little, if any, trouble with illegal immigrants entering, living, and working in, this country.

    So help me out--what's wrong with this picture?

    Truly yours, &c.,

    Mark Jaeger
    Regards,

    Mark Jaeger

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: The begining of the end?

      Is the ban nationwide or just in individual states?
      Nick Buczak
      19th Ind

      [url]http://www.allempires.com[/url]

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: The begining of the end?

        This thread may go in an ugly direction, and not to add fuel to a potential fire, but I found this recent article to be interesting, sad, but interesting.

        Gun in killings was unregulated

        Replica of Civil War revolver doesn't require background check to buy.

        By Pamela Lehman

        The Morning Call [Allentown, Penn.]
        May 2, 2007

        Even though David Hoagland Jr. could not legally own a gun, he was still able to get an unregulated replica of a 19th century revolver that police said he used to kill his estranged wife and himself.

        One day before the killings last week, a judge ordered Hoagland, 30, to stay out of the Bethlehem home he shared with his wife, Michele Hoagland, because he had threatened to shoot her and himself.

        That protection-from-abuse order, the third Michele Hoagland had been granted against her husband, barred him from having or buying firearms. So did his 1996 guilty plea to possession of marijuana with the intent to deliver.

        But police said the weapon Hoagland used Thursday, a replica of an 1851 Confederate Navy .44-caliber revolver, is not considered a firearm under state and federal laws because it uses black powder, and buyers don't need a background check.

        The federal government does not regulate the sale or possession of black powder weapons, said John Hageman, a spokesman for the Philadelphia office of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

        Bethlehem police are still trying to determine where Hoagland got the gun used in the murder-suicide.

        "We still don't know where [Hoagland] got this revolver, but he could have just walked into a store, paid for it and walked out," Detective Mark DiLuzio said.

        He said this is the first time in his 26-year career as a police officer that he's heard of this type of weapon being used in a violent crime in Bethlehem.

        Police said Hoagland used the black powder revolver to kill Michele Hoagland, 30, and then himself on Thursday night at their 1007 N. New St. home. The couple's two children were home, but neither was injured.

        A day earlier, on April 25, a protection-from-abuse order was issued for Michele Hoagland, according to Northampton County court documents. Days earlier, she told the court her husband was "going to put a (gun) barrel down my throat and kill me and then himself."

        Hoagland's family is also puzzled about the revolver. "We were really floored when we heard about the gun, because it's not something we've ever known him to have," his mother, Debra Garrett, said Tuesday.

        While his family is trying to help police with the investigation, Garrett said a part of her just doesn't care where her son got the revolver.

        "Two young people are dead, and it didn't have to be this way," Garrett said. "Knowing where the gun came from isn't going to bring them back or heal our hearts."

        Those who purchase a black powder revolver must prove they are at least 18, said Charlie Faust, a sales associate at Cabela's sporting goods store in Tilden Township, Berks County. He said the revolvers, which cost $140 to $600 each, are popular for target shooting and Civil War re-enactments.

        This model of black powder revolver is much more cumbersome to load than a modern weapon and isn't one that criminals typically use, DiLuzio said.

        To load such a revolver, an exact amount of black powder must be poured into each chamber and a round ball then loaded on top. Each ball must then be pushed into the chamber.

        To keep sparks from igniting the other chambers and help keep the bore clean, wads made of fiber or mesh are inserted under each ball or a heavy grease lubricant applied on top of them.

        Each chamber has a nipple at the rear upon which a percussion cap is placed. When the hammer strikes the cap, it detonates, sending a flame through the nipple to ignite the powder, propelling the ball toward the target.

        In 1999, Denis Czajkowski allegedly used a replica of an 1856 Civil War revolver to hold two nursing supervisors hostage at Norristown State Hospital. Czajkowski, who had been fired from his nursing job, killed one of them, Carol Sue Kepner, during the 46-hour standoff.

        From 1996 to 1999, a study by the ATF revealed, police departments requested traces on 775 antique or replica weapons used in crimes, including 15 homicides.

        Jacqueline Taschner, a Northampton County assistant district attorney, said Tuesday she doesn't necessarily think more restrictive gun laws would make a difference.

        "For someone who has nothing to lose, that desperation makes them dangerous and they're going to get a gun if they want," she said. "Stricter gun regulations are going to make it more inconvenient for the legitimate gun owners, not criminals."




        Eric
        Last edited by Dignann; 05-10-2007, 03:45 PM.
        Eric J. Mink
        Co. A, 4th Va Inf
        Stonewall Brigade

        Help Preserve the Slaughter Pen Farm - Fredericksburg, Va.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: The begining of the end?

          Typing that felt good, but has no purpose on the A-C... so, I'll save the mods some work.

          However, Mark J.: If you read what I wrote, the part about getting a beer at the Brew Pub still stands! :beer_yum:
          Last edited by LibertyHallVols; 05-10-2007, 03:14 PM. Reason: Typing this was cathartic (sp?)... Thanks, I feel better now!
          John Wickett
          Former Carpetbagger
          Administrator (We got rules here! Be Nice - Sign Your Name - No Farbisms)

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: The begining of the end?

            Originally posted by LibertyHallVols View Post
            Typing that felt good, but has no purpose on the A-C... so, I'll save the mods some work.
            No purpose!!!
            Maybe if every member was aware, and wrote a letter to their Congressman it might just be the most important thing ever posted on the AC!
            Bury your head in the sand, and ignore it , and you might just wake up one day to find your weapon illegal. I personally don't think this will pass, even in Jersey, but if it does...
            It sets precedence for other gun grabbers...
            Last edited by HighPrvt; 05-10-2007, 03:27 PM. Reason: typo
            [SIZE=3][COLOR=DarkOliveGreen][B]Howard Davis[/B][/SIZE][/COLOR]
            [I]Retired[/I]

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: The begining of the end?

              Originally posted by nick19thind View Post
              Is the ban nationwide or just in individual states?
              This is New Jersey state legislature. I personally don't plan on attending any events in NJ, but it does set precedence for other gun grabbers.
              [SIZE=3][COLOR=DarkOliveGreen][B]Howard Davis[/B][/SIZE][/COLOR]
              [I]Retired[/I]

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: The begining of the end?

                A few years ago there was a very similar bill prop[osed in New York State by Rep. Patricia Eddington from Patchouge on Long Island. Many people in the Living History sent e-mails and leteers and made phone calls to their local Representatives especially here on Long Island and the bill did not pass. As it turns out it was just another kneee-jerk reaction by a mis-informed and uneducated public servant. She did not realize exactly what she was attempting to ban because she had little or no experience with firearms save the experience of being against their existance just on principle. After the letter writting and phone call campaign, Rep. Eddington tried to rework the writting of the proposed bill to only include the Barrett .50 cal. rifle but by the time she made the changes it was too late.

                Of cousre mark is right in sayng these are the exact same people that have absolutely no problem with individuals entering our Country illeagally but they have a big problem with law abiding citizens having the benefits of the freedoms that were fought for with the bblood and tears of previous generations. If they are serious about this ban, people in NJ especially those involved in Living History should make sure their voices are heard.
                Rob Walker
                Co. H
                119th NYSV
                Old Bethpage Village Restoration


                Old Bethpage Village Restoration and Castle Williams on Governors Island safe for now. Thank you to everyone for your help!!

                "There is a fine line between a hobby and mental illness"

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: The begining of the end?

                  The hobby is fine, and will be fine. Even here in Jersey. This is just the usual "the system is going to take away all our guns" freak out that seems to go around every couple of months.

                  I do alot of work at Monmouth Battlefield State Park, and they're preparing for the annual battle reenactment at the end of June. If there were any serious threat to reenacting, I'd have heard it.
                  Jason R. Wickersty
                  http://www.newblazingstarpress.com

                  Received. “How now about the fifth and sixth guns?”
                  Sent. “The sixth gun is the bully boy.”
                  Received. “Can you give it any directions to make it more bully?”
                  Sent. “Last shot was little to the right.”
                  Received. “Fearfully hot here. Several men sunstruck. Bullets whiz like fun. Have ceased firing for awhile, the guns are so hot."

                  - O.R.s, Series 1, Volume 26, Part 1, pg 86.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: The begining of the end?

                    Originally posted by ThehosGendar View Post
                    The hobby is fine, and will be fine. Even here in Jersey. This is just the usual "the system is going to take away all our guns" freak out that seems to go around every couple of months.
                    Sure about that!
                    That's what many said about every piece of gun legislation that has been signed into law, but yeah your right, ignore it and it'll go away.
                    But the question you need to ask yourself is. Am I talking about this ridiculous legislation, or our right to own firearms?
                    [SIZE=3][COLOR=DarkOliveGreen][B]Howard Davis[/B][/SIZE][/COLOR]
                    [I]Retired[/I]

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: The begining of the end?

                      I feel for you guys in "commie states." It's not that bad in Michigan............yet!
                      Frank Perkin

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: The begining of the end?

                        I’m sorry, but I just need to say this.

                        Can a serious, level-headed debate be had in this country on this issue, without anyone becoming reactionary and hurling knee-jerk epithets? This is surely the factionalism that Madison warned about in Federalist No. 10 at its worst, and as warned, the public good suffers.

                        Is there actually a serious objection to all sorts of gun control? Should no limits be made? So, as an American, and thus bestowed the right to bear arms, I should have no responsible limit to my want to firearms, and, therefore should have as powerful and as many weapons as I want? Public good and responsibility be damned. I want guns, and I should have them, right?

                        What serious purpose, other than to create an underlying fear, or to make a lot of noise, is there in owning such things? I’ve heard the argument that it’s the last resort in defense against a government run amok. Frankly, that’s insane. If the government has gotten that bad, it’s the people’s fault, because, as we all know the words of Lincoln, the government is “of the people, by the people, and for the people.” It’s the people’s responsibility to be informed, vote, and keep politicians on their feet. Naturally, with voter turnout as less than half registered voters across a majority of the country, how can you expect your voice to be heard?

                        There is no problem with hunting rifles, and our reenacting weapons. But, please, why does someone need to own civilian versions of modern military automatic weapons? Or those easily reloaded with multiple clips? This was certainly not an issue to the Founders drawing up the Bill of Rights in 1791, and George Mason with the Virginia Declaration of Rights in 1776, when the weapon was the single shot musket.

                        Why can’t we seriously debate why the murder rate in America is the highest in the world? Put your faction, whichever side, aside. The plain fact is that people are dying, and a lot of people. Living equally between Philadelphia and New York, the news each night has a story of someone being killed. And, yes, this strikes home very much to me, as two people were shot and killed in two separate incidents, one several houses away from my fiancée’s house, and another two blocks over. So, please, please, tell me why when there is news of a shooting in Mariner’s Harbor on Staten Island, I shouldn’t be concerned about guns.

                        “…[T]he public good is disregarded in the conflicts of rival parties; and that the measures are too often decided, not according to the rules of justice, and the rights of the minor party, but by the superior force of an interested and overbearing majority.” - Madison, Federalist No. 10.

                        So, in the interest of the public good, and serious, honest, mature, and educated debate, without the labels of “commie,” “gun-grabber,” “liberal wacko,” "right-winger," “gun nut,” or whatever… why? Why the unbending devotion, no matter what the reason?

                        And mods., if you want to delete this or give me demerits, so be it. I needed to write this.
                        Last edited by ThehosGendar; 05-10-2007, 06:36 PM.
                        Jason R. Wickersty
                        http://www.newblazingstarpress.com

                        Received. “How now about the fifth and sixth guns?”
                        Sent. “The sixth gun is the bully boy.”
                        Received. “Can you give it any directions to make it more bully?”
                        Sent. “Last shot was little to the right.”
                        Received. “Fearfully hot here. Several men sunstruck. Bullets whiz like fun. Have ceased firing for awhile, the guns are so hot."

                        - O.R.s, Series 1, Volume 26, Part 1, pg 86.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: The begining of the end?

                          Jason, I respect your opinion, but the Second Amendment was not written to protect hunting rifles and reenacting weapons. BTW, why is it that the states with the most anti gun laws still have the most gun related crime?
                          Frank Perkin

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: The begining of the end?

                            And neither was it written to protect AR-15s. In a roundabout sort of way, yes, it was to protect certain reenacting weapons, those of the Rev. War community, but in their original contexts and uses.

                            And why is it that "the right to bear arms" is the oft quoted portion, but the qualifier, "A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State" is never mentioned?

                            The issue in both New York and Philadelphia surrounding the guns is that they are illegal weapons, illegally purchased and transported from other states with more lax laws, by either disreputable dealers or gangs. Both Mayors Bloomberg of NY and Street of Philadelphia, as well as the mayoral candidates, have been trying to deal with that issue.
                            Last edited by ThehosGendar; 05-10-2007, 06:32 PM.
                            Jason R. Wickersty
                            http://www.newblazingstarpress.com

                            Received. “How now about the fifth and sixth guns?”
                            Sent. “The sixth gun is the bully boy.”
                            Received. “Can you give it any directions to make it more bully?”
                            Sent. “Last shot was little to the right.”
                            Received. “Fearfully hot here. Several men sunstruck. Bullets whiz like fun. Have ceased firing for awhile, the guns are so hot."

                            - O.R.s, Series 1, Volume 26, Part 1, pg 86.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: The begining of the end?

                              Hallo!

                              "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. "

                              IMHO, because most lads have never read the writings and thoughts of those that penned the Bill of Rights, or the Constitution for that matter. And many judges who rule on the 2nd Amendment have not either.

                              IMHO, aside from the thinking of those who wrote it... their choice or where to use and place "comma's" instead of prepositions have plagued us severely.

                              A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

                              or

                              A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, as well as the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

                              or

                              A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state and the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

                              or

                              A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, or the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

                              Shoot, for that matter there is no glossary attached that lists or defines the word "arms."
                              But, "shall not be infringed." would seem to not need explanation or interpreation as we now do when we "infringe."

                              As already shared, the "2nd Amendment" is often an emotional hot button that divides instead of unites us.

                              Curt
                              Curt Schmidt
                              In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

                              -Hard and sharp as flint...secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster.
                              -Haplogroup R1b M343 (Subclade R1b1a2 M269)
                              -Pointless Folksy Wisdom Mess, Oblio Lodge #1
                              -Vastly Ignorant
                              -Often incorrect, technically, historically, factually.

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