OSHA Threatens Civil War Hobby- Serious

[JimKindred]

Re: OSHA Threatens Civil War Hobby- Serious

Jim,

About every three or four months we seem to have a bona fide Chicken Little moment in the hobby whether it is the cessation of percussion cap importation, the serial number shuffle, or our mother hen guv'mint in Dee Cee deciding anything mounting a bayonet is a dangerous assault weapon capable of bringing down empires. Such wisdom makes it easier to buy crack on the corner than it is to buy cough syrup at the pharmacy or lye at the supermarket. Oy!

Charles,

My information is not coming from the reenacting community but through my channels as a FFL dealer in modern firearms. This episode has the entire shooting related community concerned from firearms and ammunition manufacturers, wholesalers, retailers and anyone else connected with firearms or ammunition be it modern or muzzleloading. It isn't just a bunch of reenactors getting their panties in a wad over nothing.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: OSHA Threatens Civil War Hobby- Serious

No disrespect to Jim Kindred, who is in the business and knows the score but I am with Charles Heath on this one. We tend to over-react (in general) as a "community". My gut reaction here is that as with other commodities for which there are no readily available substitutes, it is an attempt to make black powder much more expensive and less convenient to purchase. However, just in case I'm wrong think I will contact Tom Ezell's buddies at Powder, Inc and procure another couple years supply in the form of a case of GOEX.

The other point that occured to me is, if BP became impossible, or at least extremely hard to find...wouldn't some enterprising scientist come up with an alternative propellant without the drawbacks of current synthetics like pyrodex, etc? If not, isn't the main drawback to the synthetics that they have to be compressed to be effective? If so, would ramming the paper create enough compression to "work"? I don't know, I am asking...the only tests I have performed first hand with synthetics satsified my curiousity that they did not perform in blank rounds due to the lack of ramming them home to compress the charge.

[Clsinclair]

Re: OSHA Threatens Civil War Hobby- Serious

"No disrespect to Jim Kindred, who is in the business and knows the score but I am with Charles Heath on this one. We tend to over-react (in general) as a "community".

It is the over reaction that heads off unwanted laws and regulations.

Regards,
Claude Sinclair

[Gallo de Cielo]

Re: OSHA Threatens Civil War Hobby- Serious

I concur that we can all tend to panic and swamp the lifeboats on some issues but even if this is just a small blow, rather than a major one, it still doesn't help matters. And then too we might all look at back at a series of small blows that eventually proved too much to overcome, whereas if we had dealt with each one as it came along the end result might have been different.

Like Tom E, I drive up to Clarksville at least once a year for a "stock up" on powder.

Regards,

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: OSHA Threatens Civil War Hobby- Serious

My hope is the Chawls is right.
My fear is that Jim is right.

Prudence would indicate that it might not be a bad idea to let those who (cough) represent me in government (cough) know my opinion on the matter.

A two year supply of powder for me is probably about 1 can. I am more concerned with my nephew and (eventually) my son. The former is getting into the hobby and I hope the same happens with the latter in the future. I'd rather they not be forced to drop firecrackers down the barrel.

John
Hopes for Sunshine but Carries an Umbrella in the Car Mess
(with apologies to Curt!)

[Csayankee]

Re: OSHA Threatens Civil War Hobby- Serious

Hey Guys,

So I have been reading the proposed change to the current standard while at work, and since my job is safety I ran it by my manager. She agrees that this standard is mainly looking at the transportation, sale and storage of explosives in bulk. (i.e - If you job is carrying explosives to construction sites for road work.) Of course we need contact our reps and OSHA for objections to this standard, due on part that they are not clearly stating small quanity sales or private use. Remember this was based on a petition from IME and SAMMI.

So I am 50 / 50 on this issue, because it does create problems on my off work hobby. It is also a good standard for the safety of employees.

[Rob Weaver]

Re: OSHA Threatens Civil War Hobby- Serious

This has been an incredibly civil and informative discussion of this issue, and my respect for everyone involved has gone sky high. My hat is off to everyone. But isn't this really a 2nd Amendment issue, being decided by an agency, not by an elected deliberative body? That gives me a sick feeling in the pit of my stomache.

Oh, and like others - I've also contacted my Congressman.

[Csayankee]

Re: OSHA Threatens Civil War Hobby- Serious

I do not believe that this is a violation of the 2nd Amendment. This agency was request by two organizations in the manufactoring of explosives and ammo to review (IME and SAMMI) and make changes to the current OSHA 1910 standard. One issue has to do with the stanard be difficult to understand. Second in response to major injuries such has the one example in the body of the standard in Chicago, that killed and injuried more then 400 workers. OSHA is not recommeding these changes for your home needs, more of for the workplace. My understanding from reading the proposed standard is that it mainly aims at the large bulk sale and transportation of explosives used in construction and military industries.

The standard is also to take the ATF regualtions for the same industries and make the language the same. ATF and OSHA use two different terms for some of the same items. This is also located in the purpose section of the proposed standard.

As stated in a previous message, that we need to contact our state and fed reps. to assure that the ATF clearly states regulations for small non commercial use of black powder.

I understand how this can affect a local gun smith, but it is truely aimed at the larger storage and use of explosives.

[JimKindred]

Re: OSHA Threatens Civil War Hobby- Serious

For those of you intent on buying a year's or life time's supply, keep it under 50LBS to be legal -

b) Black powder. Except for the provisions applicable to persons required to be licensed under subpart D, this part does not apply with respect to commercially manufactured black powder in quantities not to exceed 50 pounds, percussion caps, safety and pyrotechnic fuses, quills, quick and slow matches, and friction primers, if the black powder is intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms, as defined in 18 U.S.C. 921 (a)(1 6) or antique devices, as exempted from the term "destructive devices" in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(4).

[JimKindred]

Re: OSHA Threatens Civil War Hobby- Serious

I understand how this can affect a local gun smith, but it is truely aimed at the larger storage and use of explosives.

If the wholesalers and manufacturers cannot ship it, the local store or supply cannot sell it. This causes a darn big effect in the middle of the supply chain between the manufacturer and the end users.

I honestly do not believe this change in regulations will pass but you cannot be too careful trusting OSHA. You have to hit them with a sledge hammer rather than a tap on the shoulder to get their attention.

[Csayankee]

Re: OSHA Threatens Civil War Hobby- Serious

If the wholesalers and manufacturers cannot ship it, the local store or supply cannot sell it. This causes a darn big effect in the middle of the supply chain between the manufacturer and the end users.

I honestly do not believe this change in regulations will pass but you cannot be too careful trusting OSHA. You have to hit them with a sledge hammer rather than a tap on the shoulder to get their attention.

Jim,

I agree that it will cause problems in the supply chain at first. What I am trying to say is the main basis for this re-write of the current standard is mainly for the large suppliers, i.e demo, road construction etc.

I am on the fence with this, since my job is focused on worker safety, I can see were this is a benefit. At least with my experience on a state level, OSHA has been very easy to deal with.

Also thank you for the subpart D section, I must have missed this.

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: OSHA Threatens Civil War Hobby- Serious

Gents:

Here is what I posted on the OSHA website... it's my two cents of concern:

To all:

As a black powder enthusiast, I have heard about and read the proposed regulations by OSHA concerning black powder/ammunition (OSHA-2007-0032). While in my 15+ years of experience with black powder, I do not play down the inherent dangers associated with the use of any black powder product or associated weapon/accessories. Proper procedures -must- be followed in regard to safety always.
However, after reading this proposed regulation, I personally feel this is unnecessary and has no warrant for its passing. I feel this because it reads like another useless mound of government regulation lost yet again in the morass of what was intended as good government, only to be enacted as more mindless bureaucracy that complicates what already has been successful self-regulation/government regulation of the American ammunition industry. If this regulation passes in any of its forms, we will see just more regulation in the way of responsible shooters. Not only will this legislation needlessly block hobbyists, hunters, reenactors, and other responsible citizens from obtaining black powder or other ammunition, but also it will greatly raise the cost of purchase and transport of said goods, thereby increasing manufacture and sale of the items. No doubt, this will have an adverse effect on our economy from a small business as well as large business perspective.
The very purpose behind a law or regulation is for the general public good. Unless we actually NEED this law due to an increase of public deaths due to black powder accidents or terrorism (which to my knowledge and experience hasn't happened- when was the last time you saw a bank robbery with a musket???) then this regulation is another attempt at government outsiders that don't truly understand what they are making legislation about. Yet again, "big government" triumphs and the citizen further loses their rights over the too often mindlessly followed mantra that "more regulation just for the sake of having more regulation is always better government".

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

-John M. Lloyd

[Jim of The SRR]

Re: OSHA Threatens Civil War Hobby- Serious

THIS IS SERIOUS AND NOT A JOKE!!!

This will also likely be the end of all those little small town 4th of July fireworks displays we are a tradition here as they use a lot of black powder in their manufacture.

Hmmm, maybe people would stop celebrating "Freedom" and actually spend some time looking out for our Freedom. In reality, most people can't handle REAL Freedom. How many people who tipped back the suds and watched fireworks on Independence Day even know what teh Declaration of Independence is or who their congressman or senators are.

Jim Butler

[Clsinclair]

Re: OSHA Threatens Civil War Hobby- Serious

Tom,

Classifying BP as an explosive is nothing new, it has been classified that way for many years by BATF.

I believe what you are referring to is OSHA proposing a regulatory rule affecting the manufacturing, transportation and storage of small arms ammunition, primers and smokeless propellants. This alert was put out by the NSSF 2 Jul 07 - http://www.nssf.org/news/PR_idx.cfm?...R=BP070207.cfm

Jim Kindred
Class 1 FFL

The proposed rule was being discussed on talk radio today. Places like Wal-Mart would be forced to stop sales on ammo also with most other outlets. This is not a good rule regardless of what others think. I can see retailers searching their customers for matches and lighters.

Regards,
Claude Sinclair

[csuniforms]

Re: OSHA Threatens Civil War Hobby- Serious UNKNOWN

Well, We can see that even the folks whose job is "SAFETY" -- are unsure of the exact way it could effect the sale and distribution of black powder on retail outlets. Big shipments for mining or construction sites for blasting I understand fully the need for safety big time in the transportation and storage of large quantities of black powder. The little guy and the small shipments how will these be curtailed?? That is the question now.

CSuniforms
Tom Arliskas