Modern Denim vs. mid 19th century denim

[NYCivilWar]

Hello All,

I am wondering if modern denim that you can pick up at a fabric store is of the same construction that mid-19th century denim was constructed of? In other words would it be appropriate to make a pair of overalls from this material? I read the sticker on the roll and it stated the denim was of 100% cotton. I searched the past forums but could not find an answer, any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Kyle M. Stetz

[Greg Barnett]

Re: Modern Denim vs. mid 19th century denim

This is a question that I have intrest in as well.
I have recently procured denim that I had made. It is indigo dyed and is 55% hemp and 45% cotton.
I believe that the content is good, but I wonder about the weave.
Look forward to comments.

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Modern Denim vs. mid 19th century denim

To all-

I have read the oldest known pair of surviving "denim" pants is from 1872. Remember, not everything survives 140+ years of hard use and being eventually turned into dishrags once the garment falls apart... I wonder exactly how many patterns/types of clothing from the period we don't know about that we have lost due to continued use/misuse/trashing AFTER the war was over with..?

Go to www.levistrauss.com for the history of denim, or I have posted it from the website for your free, public information here in pdf format.

It has a great part where it talks about pre-1860s denim.
Courtesy of the Levi Strauss Corporation...

Thanks- Johnny

[NYCivilWar]

Re: Modern Denim vs. mid 19th century denim

Johnny,

Thank you for posting this article, it was very informative!

Kyle M. Stetz

[Cfarrell]

Re: Modern Denim vs. mid 19th century denim

Kyle, Johnny, and Greg,

While I don't know the difference from modern-day denim and that which was produced before and during the war (I believe it has something to do with the weave and maybe the yard...?), I do know that denim was available! One example of known denim trousers that survives is in the Confederate Echoes of Glory...look at the trousers and read the caption (can't remember the page number.) It does identify these specific trousers as being denim.

Also, while talking to Don Smith (of TMD) a few years back he mentioned recently getting the chance to look at an entire uniform made from denim (jacket and trousers.) I remember him saying it looked as if Levi went off to war. If I remember he has a reproduction of the jacket on his sight for sale.

I do know it was in use at the time of the war. Sorry I can't help you any farther, but maybe Don or Daley can chime in here.:wink_smil

Regards,

[sigsaye]

Re: Modern Denim vs. mid 19th century denim

The Navy used a lot of denim at that time. It was officially to face the collars and cuffs of White frocks (jumpers to you modern folk). But, I have found referances of it's use (and blue cotton drill) in working uniforms made by Sailors in "Southers Waters" going back to 1846. We have examined several sets of documented uniforms from the war and the imediate post war period that have denim used in them (inside cuffs and under collars on blue frocks, waist bands, pockets and bits and pieces of blue trousers, along with the collars and cuffs of white frocks. We survayed a set of whites that had white denim used inside the trousers. Any way, the denim used in these pieces looked and felt exactly the same as what is being produced today. The weave may have been looser when it was original made, and shrunk up tight over the years. This stuff got washed regularly. Most of the surviving blue fabric is faded to a nice light blue, but in the seams it is still a rich dark blue like a new pair of "Levis".

Steve Hesson

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: Modern Denim vs. mid 19th century denim

Note: While various period uses of denim is a valid discussion...indeed it has been discussed previous threads...I believe the question was;

"What are the differences between modern denim vs. mid 19th century denim?"

I believe the author is looking for differences in weave/weight/color...etc.

Paul

[Rob Weaver]

Re: Modern Denim vs. mid 19th century denim

There is a Federal short coat in the Fort Ward (Alexandria, VA) collection made of denim. Lined with ticking, no less. If I hadn't handled it myself, I would not have believed such a beast existed. It is period, but little is known of its provenance. (I just felt in all fairness its mysterious background needed to be noted.)
George Caleb Bingham painted flatboatmen in the 1840's clearly wearing denim trousers. "Ferrymen Playing Cards - 1847." There are two men playing checkers; the one on the viewer's left is wearing trousers rolled up a couple times, showing his boots. The trousers show the distinctive reverse color of denim.

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Modern Denim vs. mid 19th century denim

Kyle, contact Cone Mills there in Greensboro and ask if they have any information on the denim they were producing in the 19th century.

336.379.6220

This may be a little hit and miss but contact Ben Tart's alma mater the NC State College of Textiles as well. You never know who knows what.

http://www.tx.ncsu.edu/faculty_center/directory/index.cfm

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Modern Denim vs. mid 19th century denim

If any of you by any chance wrote the Cone phone number down that I originally posted please discard it and do not call. I have added a public number for Kyle.

[Big Whisky]

Re: Modern Denim vs. mid 19th century denim

I'll be the first to admit that I am no where NEAR an expert but every now and then I come across denim in a local fabric store that is very close to the blue cotton jean that FHWs was putting out. The difference was that FHW had a brown warp and a looser weave. I can't speak for the dye.
Frank J Marek
Texas Rifles

[Clsinclair]

Re: Modern Denim vs. mid 19th century denim

What about the Port Hudson Trousers that survived?

Claude Sinclair

[GreencoatCross]

Re: Modern Denim vs. mid 19th century denim

I have a bolt of indigo dyed denim that compares favorably the lining of an original state jacket I viewed several years ago. The weight and hand of the original lining is close to that of cotton drill but slightly boardier (not as heavy as bull denim or china twill). The jacket lining appeared to have been a yarn-dyed indigo weft on a chocolate brown warp, with the weft having a very vibrant medium-dark hue. This is the only original denim I have viewed in person.

The fabric I found locally is a piece-dyed bolt of pure indigo dyed denim with a previously brown warp. The reason I say "previously" is because since the fabric is piece-dyed the brown warp now has a greenish-brown appearance due to the indigo dye. The color, weave, weight, thickness of yarns, yarn count, and hand are all very similar to the original jacket lining. The only problem is the selvedge; it has the little tufts of cotton yarn sticking out, which is something I've been told is not a selvedging technique from the mid-19th century.

I go to the local fabric store once a week to see what else they have and I've only ever found this denim once. They carry a great deal of other denims that have the rougher appearance of cotton jeancloth but I'm not sure how they compare to originals. I for one would love to see an original pair of blue denim trousers, or even a military jacket made from the same.

[Greg Barnett]

Re: Modern Denim vs. mid 19th century denim

Mr. White,
Would you have intrest in a sample of the Hemp/ Cotton denim I have? I would like imput on the weave, warp and such. The warp, in this case has not been dyed.

Cheers

[Gallo de Cielo]

Re: Modern Denim vs. mid 19th century denim

One can find a pair of trousers in the CS edition of Echoes of Glory made of a lighter colored cotton denim. The Port Hudson trousers were mentioned above but with those is also a jacket of the same material. I believe this was what Cody Farrel was referencing with his story of "Levi gone to war."

Also, just because Levi jeans were not dated during the war, that has no bearing on the existance or use of cotton denim. The stuff was cheap, easily produced, and durable. Good qualities for working folks' clothing and supplements to uniforms as well.

My two cents,