Camp Chase Gazette and the Watchdog

[Craig L Barry]

Re: C/P/H and The Watchdog

I was thinking of something more than article length, along the lines of a monograph on the subject. It has not been done before, at least not properly the way Charles could do it, to my knowledge.

Patrick

I respect your perspective on things. You have a great enthusiasm for the hobby and a great voice, like Charles Heath without the "my way or the highway" tone that we all have come to treasure so much. He is our resident iconoclast. Seriously, I like the device and the way Charles uses it. He picks his spots. You seem very knowledgeable about the editorial practices of Camp Chase Gazette. Are you a subscriber? I am not an employee of Camp Chase Gazette, Lakeway does not pay me to apologize for them and I'm not about to. This discussion is about "The Watchdog" and the relationship with the self-identified C/P/H segment of the community, to the extent someone can explain who is in that segment and who is not.

Same thing with all the new supporters of The "old" Watchdog that are coming out of the woodwork now...how many supported "Getting It Right" and battlefield preservation when it might have actually mattered? That's a rhetorical question...too few.

Now, back to the subject at bar...what I am hearing is that there are people out there whose opinions I respect on some subjects, meaning Charles Heath, Hank Trent, Paul Calloway, et alia, who feel strongly that The Watchdog needs to be in evidence, out there supporting the EBUFU at the grass roots level. And this is a problem that we have not here-to-for made that a priority? And while we know that the EBUFU does not include everybody trying to "Get It Right" you sense in the priorities of The Watchdog and our recent moves, a denial of your values?

[coastaltrash]

Re: C/P/H and The Watchdog

Craig,
I would rather go outside and burn a twenty dollar bill than pick up a current issue of Camp Chase gazette, to call that magazine toilet paper, would be an insult to Paul Bunion. And I never subscribed to the Watchdog either, simply because I get a second hand copy when I want it but there hasn't been anything earth shattering in the magazine to make me WANT to pick it up. Everyone is pretty clear about the editing, we'll call it a mishap, that CCG pulled a few months back, if you are not, I think a search of the forum will pull that up. I found a lot of my own research information from first hand accounts and examination or originals, along with old copies the Hardcracker Handbook and the Third Mississippi Training Manual. The Watchdog Simply never interested me, guess I'm not about doing it right.

[Hank Trent]

Re: C/P/H and The Watchdog

Are you interested in "Getting It Right" and battlefield preservation, or are you primarily interested in doing your own thing in the form of events "by you for you"? I don't care if you are, that's great for you, but that's not what The Watchdog traditionally represents.

Are you saying there are two different kinds of reenactors?

1) those people who are primarily interested in "getting it right" and battlefield preservation, and

2) those people who are primarily interested in attending EBUFU events?

Wow. Just, wow.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Craig L Barry]

Re: C/P/H and The Watchdog

Hank:
Certainly not. To reiterate, we intend to be inclusive and not exclusive in terms of "Getting It Right". This is great dialog by the way. Very enlightening. Each of us need to decide for ourselves and reach our own conclusions about what our motives are and why we participate in the events we chose to do. I can't help you there. However, I do know why we select the events on our calendar and what we are trying to accomplish by attending them. Think of attending an event as a vote. The Watchdog votes for "Getting It Right" and raising funds (the maximum amount of funds) for battlefield preservation. This does not mean your individual motives for attending an EBUFU may not be the same reasons The Watchdog attended Mill Springs (Getting It Right and battlefield preservation). You would know that, not me. Our decision was to do Mill Springs. It turned out pretty well. Let's turn that around though...let's say (with our stated mission) we did Outpost III and skipped Mill Springs, it would be more fun for us (no doubt) but how would that better meet The Watchdog's broader objectives?

Patrick:
Help me out here, since you admittedly never supported The Watchdog, other than to read a second hand copy what possible motive do you have in expressing an opinion on the direction it takes? Your opinion will have be weighted a little differently. I can respect that opinions vary. And if you read even a few of Volumes One through Fifteen of The Watchdog quarterly and never found anything out that you didn't already know, that is quite a bold statement, indeed.

[coastaltrash]

Re: C/P/H and The Watchdog

Craig,
I believe if you take down your shield and re-read the statement I made I admitted that the information helped this movement, myself included. Not everything is an attack, but the fact you guys combined with CCG is the largest waste of a good thing I have seen in some time. On top of that, when I was personally fleshing out my own cash to fund my Education, getting my own subscription to the watchdog was never a priority. Also, the issue isn't if the WATCHDOG attends what event. It is about the people that RUN THE MAGAZINE- oh like for instance, the Editor. Being told how to do it right by someone who admits they do not attend campaigner events is like reading a bass fishing magazine where the editor says "It's about catching the big Bass" even though he has never stepped foot on a boat, let alone fished.

[paulcalloway]

Re: C/P/H and The Watchdog

Craig -
One of my main priorities this year, when taking the reins again on the AC, was to hit some EBUFU events. While we have a definate preservation tilt here on the AC, it's clear to me that if I'm going to administrate a website for the c/p/h wing of the hobby again, I need to be at the events they promote and attend - some of which are very preservation oriented and others of which aren't.

The same should be said for the editors of the Watchdog, the editors of the Civil War Historian and any other publication that presumes to speak to and for c/p/h reenactors.

The folks who will be attending Outpost III are your constituents and your customers. You need to be there or they'll continue casting their votes for other candidates.

Put simply, if you want folks to listen to you - you have to put yourself in a position where they can hear you. The CCG aint that place. Furthermore, the WatchDog's Approved Vendor position runs out on Nov 7th and I'm going to be hardpressed to figure out any justification for it to continue for another year... especially if you choose Cedar Creek over the Outpost.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: C/P/H and The Watchdog

Patrick:
You are kidding yourself there. We don't research and write about campaigner events. If so, then we would need to be there in order to have crediblity, like the Bassmaster example. We research and write about the material culture of the 1860s. These are two different things. What insight into 1860s material culture would be gained by attending a modern immersion event, which is an interpretation of history and not the thing itself?

That said, Bill Christen does some immersion events along those lines at Shaker Village as a civilian, and as a representative of The Watchdog. When he is at those events it is usually to give a presentation on some aspect of material culture, or on his book "Pauline Cushman: Spy of the Cumberland."

Paul:
Your comments about the pros and cons of attending Outpost III make some logical sense. At least I can follow the reasoning. However, if I make a commitment as I have with Cedar Creek Battlefield Foundation, I am going to try my best to honor that commitment. That's the first priority. And whether I can also attend Outpost III (in addition) will be between me and the War Department. And likewise, the continuation of The Watchdog's "approved vendor" position is strictly up to the discretion of yourself and the other board members. You have to decide what's in the best interest of the A-C Forum, just as we have to make decisions about what is in the best interest of The Watchdog, and if these relationships continue to make sense and add value. No hard feelings either way.

[JimKindred]

Re: C/P/H and The Watchdog

The moderators will decide when this issue has run it's course and the thread needs to be closed.

[coastaltrash]

Re: C/P/H and The Watchdog

Craig,
Paul's comments are pretty much along the same lines as mine. This side of the hobby cares about preservation. What I personally do not care about is self serving big bugs at the larger events where I guess they "do it right". Good luck with the venture with the CCG after this conversation it appears like a perfect fit.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: C/P/H and The Watchdog

Works for me. I think it will be a good fit, too but for different reasons. Assuming we all support battlefield preservation as a shared value, then it boils down to which members of the hobby support The Watchdog and want to know if they are "Getting It Right", and which do not support it because either already know what we have to share, or they don't care. These are of course the opposite ends of the historical accuracy spectrum.

I will leave that question to the philosophers. And for the record, as my final word on the subject, my mailbox has been filling up with Private Messages, the thrust of which suggest The Watchdog is doing the right thing, both for itself and the hobby.

[dusty27]

Re: C/P/H and The Watchdog

Craig,

Quick questions and a plea.

How many participants were at Mill Spring? What was the registration fee? What was the spectator fee? Any chance to get to look at the books for the event?

Also, next time the Watchdog has some extra money to go to a preservation cause, may I suggest this one:

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?p=76504#post76504

Thanks

[coastaltrash]

Re: C/P/H and The Watchdog

Craig,
You keep repeating this thing about doing it right, and I have asked a few times- but what about the Camp Chase rag is "right"? I asked about back issues so I could pick up several issues dealing with specific pieces of equipment I have not had the chance to view personally and the Watchdog included a good article. Grand total my request I emailed in dealt with about 9 different issues so I look forward to hearing back from whomever handles that. Hopefully the move doesn't water the message, which is my point that you missed, but the Camp Chase does not care about doing anything right and that is evident in the pages of the magazine. Sad that if I wanted to pick up a copy of the Dog, I would have to pick up a copy of Camp Chase to do it, and that just isn't going to happen.

[AZReenactor]

Re: C/P/H and The Watchdog

Craig,
I don't have much a dog in this fight since I have a tendency to be suspicious of must experts, and prefer to use them as a springboard for my own research rather than a conclusion on a subject. The few more recent issues of the watchdog I've seen haven't impressed me all that much in scope or depth. As a consequence I haven't gotten around to subscribing to the Watchdog or to fill up my gaps in back issues in the last couple of years and won't now since I don't see myself subscribing to CCG anytime soon.

That being said, I would suggest that you are really missing the boat if you are limiting your study of material culture to how it compares under the microscope and calipers. Using properly made reproduction gear in the field provides insights into its function and use that can go a long ways to understand the reason's and necessities behind those details. Well done immersion events help to put the gear into a proper context and subject it to the same rigors and uses as originals were subject to. For example, it is one thing to judge a pair of brogans as a nice looking replica of originals and quite another to evaluate how they wear and hold up after the first dozen miles or so of actual cross country trekking. Stains, rips, wear marks, repairs, etc. that are acquired in the field can provide a great deal of insight into the same on an original item that was used in the same way more than a century ago. If your study of material culture neglects the examination of authentically reproduced gear under authentic conditions then you are missing a very large part of the picture about said gear as well as about the period itself.

Unlike the hardkewl who want to know how to look their very best while standing around sutler row at a streamer event looking pretty while not doing s*** (except perhaps contributing their registration fee to something) this end of the hobby is really about getting out in the field and using correct gear in the correct way. If you don't get this, is there really any wonder why your publication isn't connecting with folks at this end of the hobby? Without that context it sounds like your efforts probably do fit in better with the audience of the CCG than with this one.

We don't research and write about campaigner events. If so, then we would need to be there in order to have crediblity, like the Bassmaster example. We research and write about the material culture of the 1860s. These are two different things. What insight into 1860s material culture would be gained by attending a modern immersion event, which is an interpretation of history and not the thing itself?

[Hank Trent]

Re: C/P/H and The Watchdog

What insight into 1860s material culture would be gained by attending a modern immersion event, which is an interpretation of history and not the thing itself?

Well, there are many historians who don't reenact at all, and they are valuable resources and know their subjects well. I was just caught by surprise at the damning with faint praise of the c/p/h wing of the hobby and their events, and even more so, the apparent lack of knowledge about what c/p/h reenactors do and therefore how they use the information presented. Of course, there's no need to know that, or even to like them--many historians are actually hostile toward all reenactors, yet it doesn't lessen the value of their research or prevent reenactors from applying it. But it just seemed odd to come to a forum dedicated to c/p/h reenacting and show it so plainly.

That said, Bill Christen does some immersion events along those lines at Shaker Village as a civilian, and as a representative of The Watchdog. When he is at those events it is usually to give a presentation on some aspect of material culture, or on his book "Pauline Cushman: Spy of the Cumberland."

I believe you might want to check the definition of immersion, since behavior like giving modern lectures is not allowed by the participants. Immersion-style carpe eventums have been done at Shaker Village by subsets of participants, but the event itself is not designed to be one, and those who give or attend modern lectures or discuss a modern magazine would not be participating in an immersion carpe eventum.

In fact there's been a long-standing divide in the civilian side of the hobby, between those who want events to provide modern lectures and similar non-living-history activities to fill the civilians' time in between brief historic scenarios (the typical mainstream/authenticist model), and those who want events to integrate civilians into the period situation for the duration of the event (the typical immersion model).

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Charles Heath]

Re: C/P/H and The Watchdog

If Charles Heath will take his chisel to his stone tablet and produce something on "Rations", I will include EBUFU in my schedule, and recommend the same for The Watchdog. Paul is right and I have no reason, other than time management not to get down to Outpost III.

Craig,

Been there, done that. Matter of fact, if you want to learn something about EBUFU events in past years, check out a publication called Civil War Historian. Many of the issues contain feature articles about some incredibly good events. Grumpy Dave held up a number of CWH issues last year at the battalion meeting, and said "hey, did ya ever notice?" We did notice.

The draft version of the rations book is nearly 200 pages in length, and it will most definitely not be published by The Watchdog, The Camp's Chased Dog, or The Washed Up Gazette. You can thank (or blame) Steve "Quiet Man" Tyler for a greatly needed project boost earlier this year. A number of folks have seen bits, pieces, and chunks of this work, and have consumed bits, pieces, and blew chunks (thanks Scott) from the resulting practicums.

As Pat mentioned, Nicky Hughes asked me to do a food service AAR for the 2nd Bull Run NPS LH last year. Even Nicky has a lapse in judgement now and then. I know he wanted to do something similar for a previous event a few years ago, but the great purge at CCG (among other things) prevented that from happening. The responses from the readership ran 125:1 positive, so that's somewhat encouraging. Not bad for a lowly "how-to" article. For what it is worth, I have threatened Nicky with a follow-up article, but the technical glitch is being able to create an appropriate scratch-n-sniff section.

See you at Outpost.