Camp Chase Gazette and the Watchdog

[Kevin O'Beirne]

Re: IMHO: What's wrong with the CCG

Herr Devil's Advocate, :-)

I agree that we are probably unlikely to hear from CCG via e-mail or on this or any other forum (even CCG's own forum), so much is the pity.

However, one item in your post begs me to ask: What makes you believe that if you were to send CCG an unsolicited article that they would probably not want to print it? Particularly based on the most recent issue, I'm of the opinion they'd print darn near anything these days.

[Kevin O'Beirne]

Re: CCG: To the A/C forum from Brad Peery

Paul,

As I wrote in a related thread in this folder, often a drowning man cries out, "Help! I'm drowning!" Unless, of course, he's too proud to do so, or perhaps not smart enough to know to do it. Hopefully CCG soon starts taking increasingly pro-active steps to halt its slide. It'd be great to hear from Ed Hooper himself, and possibly even the publisher...at least once or twice.

[Eric Tipton]

Re: CCG: To the A/C forum from Brad Peery

It'd be great to hear from Ed Hooper himself, and possibly even the publisher...at least once or twice.

Kevin:

While working with the Camp Chase web site, I made several requests for them to do this - beginning about a month ago. I was glad to see Brady come out and talk, as I was never an official "employee" there. I know they do monitor the forums, but I was never really told anything more than what has been put out to the masses. Ironically, I found out about the new editor from your post over at the OTB. To a certain extent, a bunker mentality seems to have set in at this point.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: IMHO: What's wrong with the CCG

Hallo Herr Kevin!

"What makes you believe that if you were to send CCG an unsolicited article that they would probably not want to print it?"

Nothing factual, certain, or based in reality or experience.

A mixture of assumptions, unfounded opinons, "long-range" observations, some previous experiences with another "mainstream" magazine, personal experiences with a range of F/M/C/P/H/A lads and groups, a stronger desire to "write" here and on Szabo's rather than "in the future" in a magazine (I have writen for four magazines over the years- some with 2-3 year print cycles after submission), and a "self-fulfilling prophecy" arising out of a lack of ideas of possible articles on my part to actually send to them.

Nothing much at all in the end.

Rhetoricially, what does a "typical" (with full realization and appreciation that there is no "typical" F/M/C/P/H/A) CCG reader WANT to read?
(M1841 Rifle CW alterations?) Just teasing... :-) :-)

As I said, the problem lies not with CCG but with me, in this too.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[Glenn Milner]

Re: CCG: To the A/C forum from Brad Peery

Everything you guys want, I want. I want more unit history, more living history coverage, more articles on authentic period items & attitudes, heritage articles .... you've presented a fine list of content desires .... you've offered many good ideas. I believe that material from the best people this hobby has to offer, will be desirable content for all levels of participation. Lakeway is not avoiding this kind of content because it fears the market is too small. You just won't send it in. They'll print it. Believe me they want to make you happy .... THEY HAVE TO MAKE YOU HAPPY .... but can't do it without your input.

Brady Peery

Mr. Peery,
I believe that you've got some basic marketing problems here. You've mis-identified your target market and the needs/desires of that target market. I think you'll find your target market in the flesh at mainstream events, not posting on this forum. Ask your subscriber base what they want. Communicate with as many of them as you can as quickly as you can. If CCG is to flourish, its content must be driven by what its subscriber base wants.
Your use of phrases such as "you guys want", "I want" and "I believe" make me think that you're embarked on a campaign to provide your subscribers with things _you think they should be interested in_ and not what they actually are interested in. No level of service quality will overcome this fundamental mistake and the free market is very unforgiving. This little bit of consulting is guaranteed to be worth what you paid for it. Good luck.
Glenn Milner

[Brady]

Re: IMHO: What's wrong with the CCG

I hope you don't mind me stepping into your camp. I am not here trying to subvert .... but my name has been referenced.

Here are a few HARD FACTS you may find HARD to believe:
--CCG is not getting rich off subscribers or advertisers
--CCG does NOT make editorial decisions based on advertisers desires
--CCG does NOT court farbs because it is a bigger market
--CCG is NOT dumming down their content -- that would be suicide ... it MAY be homicide if no one contributes.
--CCG iwould stay dedicated to the most authentic standards available from today's scholarly research -- if and when you would submit it.
--CCG does not know who the best and brightest are to request contributions.
--CCG didn't get contributions even when they DID know who the best and brightest are
--CCG is begging for people to come forward

In agreement:
--YES, CCG should offer compensation for contributions. But would $20 really motivate you? Unfortunately that's about all this size publication could afford. Write for a mag with 50,000 circulation and maybe you'll make $100 an article. However they do need to do something for contributors.

--YES, CCG should be out at the first of every month ... but I can't believe 2 pages of late dates in an event calendar which you can access from 10 different other places, is an actual reason for not subscribing. No one subscribes to the Gazette nowdays because of the event calendar. Besides, after May, the event calendar barely changes except for getting shorter. Do you really feel cheated because a handfull of events have expired? Do you always wait until the last second to decide which event to go to?

--YES, CCG has been running large farby photos and farby articles lately. Evidently only farbs want to share their knowledge ... as inept and unscholarly as it may be.

--YES, CCG IS like a big newsletter .... it's for the reenactor who wants to share their knowledge and make the hobby a better more authentic environment. It should cater to everyone's needs in the hobby. Unfortunately, in the past, stuff has been over the heads of many less knowledgable reenactors. Having knowledge and being able to communicate effectively are two entirely different things. But the ultimate goal is to better the hobby by trying to improve the less knowledgable.

--YES, CCG does not have the EYE you guys have. I think that's a problem. They are trying to find people who do have an eye for detail .... Anyone want to put their reputation on the line?

--YES, CCG is no longer piloted by diehard reenactors .... I think most diehard reenactors have eventually crashed and burned here. Who's got the time? The reenacting lifestyle is hard enough ... try living it 24-7 as your profession AND hobby ... under the microscope of you guys. In the old days it might have been easier because the number of people in-the-know were fewer and not equipped with internet death squads waiting to pounce on any mis-speak. The pressure has killed brain cells in many a brave soul.


I've gone on long enough.
My personal belief is that people want to know what the best is in any hobby ... that's what they strive to attain. They don't want to look like a fool -- they want to know what "correct" is. Hotrod magazines don't run articles about some guy adding a new breather kit to his Escort .... they only present the best and most dedicated hobbiests available. And it's prestigious to be published. To be published in CCG is to open yourself to criticism from a hundred angry voices that can never be satisfied. If you want an EXPERT publication for the few EXPERTS in the hobby, best of luck. But you'll tear each other apart.

OH. One last note -- not to put words in Eds mouth. But he is very very overworked and EXTREMELY underpaid. He attends a CW function almost every weekend. He reads the forums but has not got the time to get involved in posting YET. By reading he is learning the different views ... but posting does nothing to get the publications out quicker. ... for what it's worth.

Brady Peery

[dusty27]

Re: IMHO: What's wrong with the CCG

--YES, CCG should be out at the first of every month ... but I can't believe 2 pages of late dates in an event calendar which you can access from 10 different other places, is an actual reason for not subscribing. No one subscribes to the Gazette nowdays because of the event calendar. Besides, after May, the event calendar barely changes except for getting shorter. Do you really feel cheated because a handfull of events have expired? Do you always wait until the last second to decide which event to go to?

As I think this one is addressed to me, even indirectly, let me just say that I don't use the magazine to pick my events. I pretty much know what events I will be attending in 2005 already and they aren't even listed in the CCG right now.

The "getting the magazine on a timely manner" thing that bothers me most is that it makes it apppear as if the magazine isn't very organized. Some of the stories I hear from others here is that articles are lost or ignored or both, which only feeds that fire for me.

I'm quite content "surfing" the net for any information I need now. I'll send my $28 to CWPT instead, thanks.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: IMHO: What's wrong with the CCG

Hallo Kamerad!

Welcome to the AC Forum, and thanks for posting.

Alas, I will have to go back and reference your name as I am at a disadvantage here.. sorry.

Still under the Devil's Advocate hat here...

"My personal belief is that people want to know what the best is in any hobby ... that's what they strive to attain. They don't want to look like a fool -- they want to know what "correct" is. "

I think we will quickly get into an ACW version of McGreagor's "Theory X and Theory Y" perceptions but substituting "Civil War Hobby" for "Work. :-)

My 30 year view and experience is somewhat different. I believe the most people do not want to know what is best because they function, live and breathe, and enjoy thier "hobby" at a "comfort level" of sorts created by the "culture" of the "type" of "reenacting" they are introduced to and learn. Some move on, most stay there. (Hence the reference to "mainstream."
And for many, no one wants to be told, shown, be reminded, or have their face "rubbed in it" that they are "wrong," "bad," "incorrect," dishonoring their CW ancestors, "distorting the Past," "misrepresenting their History," or "miseducating the Public," or any other cliches that may or may not be true.
People do what works for them.

I believe that if they want to know what "is best," all they have to do is reachout and claim it. If they indeed "seek to know," why is it not translated in action and deed? Why is the paradigm "F/M/C/P/H/A" and not just "A" then?
There is perhaps actually no definition of "best," as it is highly subjective to one's valid Mental Picture of what one sees oneself doing and where one sees onself fitting in, level and type of interests, applications, and events.
For many in the Civil War Community "recreational pageantry" works, because it works for them. Works well, and rightfully so. And people do what works.

For my part in the CCG discussion I have said that the problem was mine and not CCG's, that I have "moved on" away from where CCG was at. And I had said in regard to not sending in an unsolicited "H/A type" article:

"A mixture of assumptions, unfounded opinons, "long-range" observations, some previous experiences with another "mainstream" magazine, personal experiences with a range of F/M/C/P/H/A lads and groups, a stronger desire to "write" here and on Szabo's rather than "in the future" in a magazine (I have writen for four magazines over the years- some with 2-3 year print cycles after submission), and a "self-fulfilling prophecy" arising out of a lack of ideas of possible articles on my part to actually send to them."

Not a negative or criticism of CCG, its owners, publishers, editors, staff, or subscribers/readers- just my failings and possibly why I am no longer neither a reader subscriber after 30 years, or contributing or staff writer.

But, in some things, it is possible that we are in different hobbies together.

X Theory and Y Theory. ;-) :-)

I am sorry not to have recognized your name.

Again, thanks for posting!

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[Fod]

Re: CCG: To the A/C forum from Brad Peery

BUT NONE OF YOU WILL CONTRIBUTE WHAT YOU WANT TO READ!!!!!!!!

Okay, but it's been a while since I've had anything published commercially.

What's the going rate for a 2000 word article nowadays?

[paulcalloway]

Re: IMHO: What's wrong with the CCG

Well, have just received some very encouraging correspondence from Bill Holschuh, formerly of the CCG. This is totally indicative of the jerkoffs that exist in this hobby.

Paul,

RE YOUR STATEMENT: “I don't know about the rest of you, but I've yet to receive a request from any of them for articles even though I've seen repeatedly references to Nicky, Bill, Ed ‘begging for articles’.”

I think I can clear up why you were never asked to write for CCG. The one article you submitted, “The Case for ‘Comrade,’” became such a chore to edit that we swore we would never go through that ordeal again.

You sent us an endless stream trifling revisions, (some arriving even after the issue was at the printer,) and we spent hours cleaning up the formatting and digging out all of the embedded footnotes.

And then frankly, after all that work, the article really wasn’t that good. It was a prime example of the caliber of content we had during what I think you referred to in an earlier post as our “sludge” period.

Having cleared that up, I would like to ask for clarification on your last sentence, which states:

“Make and announcement - run a contest, do something to invite authors and researchers to submit something for publication... am I missing something?”

Didn’t you just say three or four sentences back that you have “seen repeatedly references to Nicky, Bill, Ed ‘begging for articles’.”

Am I missing something??

Regards,

Bill Holschuh
Former CCG Publisher and A/C Forum Punching Bag

And that crap that he was putting in his columns for years was so much better. I'll never receive another issue of that magazine, willingly - regardless of who is the editor.

[Agate]

Re: IMHO: What's wrong with the CCG

Man,

Here I was considering contacting these folks to see if they might be interested in my attempt at an article or two on the USQMD and the western theater. That's how they treat those that take the time and effort? Too, correct me if I'm wrong here, do I understand that articles are "donated" to boot?

Haven't picked up a copy of the magazine in ten years, call me what you will, I could care less. After that, ain't starting again now.

Whatever,

John

John Sarver

[Brady]

Re: IMHO: What's wrong with the CCG

Hey! Whoever wants to start a new magazine? This is what you have to put up with. Man I've never seen a bigger bunch of cry babies. :cry_smile
I thought I might find some objectivity here. I've been beating my head against a wall because I want to learn something. If this is how you experts treat each other, then I'm going back to the farbs. "Stupidity" is bliss. ....
Stand in the corner children, until you can talk nicely to each other.

Brady Peery
Farb and glad of it.

[paulcalloway]

Re: IMHO: What's wrong with the CCG

Hey! Whoever wants to start a new magazine? This is what you have to put up with. Man I've never seen a bigger bunch of cry babies. :cry_smile
I thought I might find some objectivity here. I've been beating my head against a wall because I want to learn something. If this is how you experts treat each other, then I'm going back to the farbs. "Stupidity" is bliss. ....
Stand in the corner children, until you can talk nicely to each other.

Brady Peery
Farb and glad of it.

That's bound to get your subscriptions up. Good call.

[Agate]

Re: IMHO: What's wrong with the CCG

Mr. Peery,

I mean really, come on. You don't agree that the letter to Paul was a bit much? I'm not crying, I'm deciding where to spend my cash, and put forth effort. If that's how folks who have submitted articles in the past are treated, why on earth do you think I would be interested to do so in the future?


I don't need that frustration.

I think the guy was plain rude. You don't agree with that?

John Sarver

[Agate]

Re: IMHO: What's wrong with the CCG

Better yet,

I could care less.

You can go to, and stay till.

John Sarver