What kind of future market are we creating

[Doug Potter]

Have or has anyone one besides myself gave any thought to the good authentic equipment that we buy today, may very well be worth a lot of money in the future, as collectables,
I am not saying being passed off as originals, rather, in say 25 or more years what will a Daley frock in mint condition or a pair of mint Sullivan trousers or a ************ Cartridge box be worth. When the fellows have retired thier goods may be worth more then they sold for new,
I know I have a shelter half made by Bob Serio of Missouri boot and shoe 25 years ago, everyone who sees it wants it, I could have traded it many times for a new one, I talked to Mr. Serio about it because I had never seen one made by him, and was curious about it, I picked it up from a fellow who stoped reenacting twenty years ago, and found it in the back of a closet he sold it to me for $20.00 for both half's,
Mr. Serio told me he made those when he was in college, and was surprised that there was still one out there, the Shelter half is all done by hand very high quality like everything Mr Serio doe's,
High quality equipment is going to hold it's value and in the future may be a good investment.
just a thought,

[Jersey Devil]

Re: What kind of future market are we creating

Can't we get past the gear?

[Doug Potter]

Re: What kind of future market are we creating

Sure we can throw out all the guidlines then we would be past the gear, I was not implying anything about the gear making the impression, or visa versa I was simply stating that with the quality of goods out there, that we as a hobby could be creating a future collecable market, Is that a bad thing????
I wish more people would look at a persons attitude before they look at what he is wearing to an event, A lot of very good reenactors can't go to the better events because they can't afford the Gear,
but that is not what my original post is about, I guess in a round about way I was attempting the compliment the vendors that take the time to study and do the research and make goods that are of such quality as to some day be considered a collectable item.
Sorry if you missunderstood my post Bo.
those that can do, those that can't teach, and those that can't teach or do are critics.

[Eric Burke]

Re: What kind of future market are we creating

Perhaps sometime in the future, reenactors will reenact reenactments! :D

[Jersey Devil]

Re: What kind of future market are we creating

Doug,

It was a joke. Take the Percocets instead of the Guarana next time!

Oh and BTW...

This statement...

those that can do, those that can't teach, and those that can't teach or do are critics.

Is pure bullshit.

[RyanBWeddle]

Re: What kind of future market are we creating

Hell - if the trend of massive spikes in cost for 'authentic' goods continues, as it has over the past five years or so, I can only imagine what retail costs will be in another five or ten years!

I mean, for example in 1997 I could get a sack coat for $97 and now the same thing costs over $200 through a middleman. And the one from '97 was a better reproduction anyhow (IMHO)!

So think of the investment potential for the current consumer . . . (who needs a college savings plan for that newborn anyways !?!?! :D )

Not trying to start a riot, just stating some facts!

[tmattimore]

Re: What kind of future market are we creating

Ryan
A few more facts to consider. In 1988 when I started making shoes and leather goods the folowing prices were in effect.
1988 2004
Linen thread 5 cord $18.00 per lb $32.00
Sole leather 12 iron $2.95 per lb $4.60
6oz veg tan $2.50 per sq ft $3.75
Barge cement $14.00 per gal. $ 26.00
5 oz shoe tacks $1.80 per lb $4.80

In 1988 cement, dye and other flammable materials shipped by weight today all have a hazmat charge of $29.00 per box in addition to freight. In 1988 there were four tanners of sole leather in the U.S. today there is one.
In 1988 there were few or no resources for correct cloth, today there are producers of cloth, clothing, and leather goods far superior to what was available then. I belive they are worthy of recompense for their research and labor.
Tom Mattimore

[CJSchumacher]

Re: What kind of future market are we creating

Ryan
A few more facts to consider. In 1988 when I started making shoes and leather goods the folowing prices were in effect.
1988 2004
Linen thread 5 cord $18.00 per lb $32.00
Sole leather 12 iron $2.95 per lb $4.60
6oz veg tan $2.50 per sq ft $3.75
Barge cement $14.00 per gal. $ 26.00
5 oz shoe tacks $1.80 per lb $4.80

In 1988 cement, dye and other flammable materials shipped by weight today all have a hazmat charge of $29.00 per box in addition to freight. In 1988 there were four tanners of sole leather in the U.S. today there is one.
In 1988 there were few or no resources for correct cloth, today there are producers of cloth, clothing, and leather goods far superior to what was available then. I belive they are worthy of recompense for their research and labor.
Tom Mattimore

Tom,

Let me state first that as a financial analyst and economist by trade, this dicussion has particular interest to me.

Now, sole leather aside (since suppliers evidently dropped)...by subject of supply and demmand wouldn't more producers of cloth equal lower prices for said cloth? Has demmand outpaced supply even with more sources for material?

I understand that over a 16-year period, costs of raw materials will rise. How about over the shorter term? How much should price for a finished garment be affected vs. raw materials? If the price for a federal frock coat with machine sewn buttonholes in say 1997 cost less than $200...then have production and raw material costs in the meantime really caused the price of the same garment to more than double?? I too, would agree with Ryan that the garment in 1997 would probably be a nicer garment simply because they weren't mass produced.

Let me just state, also, that I fully agree that vendors should be compensated for research and intellectual property. Just curious about your thoughts, though as I appreciate the honest detail of your itemizing.

Chris

[NY Pvt]

CW reenacting Economics 101

Ah, the economics of civil war reenacting.

This is simple supply and demand for the most part. Also if we the consumers are willing to pay the extra few dollars here and a few dollars there, prices will continue to go up. Unless everyone decides not to buy a certain good over a certain price, there will always be a demand in the foreseeable future. As long as were willing to pay for it, prices will go up because markers are trying to boost profits. Hey we all would.

On average, inflation in the United States is 5%, although some years are greater then others. So on average the prices in the seven-year span from 1997-2003 would have rose 30%. So that sack coat that went for $97 dollars in 1997 would in theory be $127 today. However, inflation, while is the main reason for a price increase, there are other external factors like Mr. Mattimore mentioned such as (new shipping regulations, experience…people giving themselves a well deserved raise, kids to put through college, ect).

I don’t want to come off sounding anti-vendor…I am not. The service and research they provide to the community is unfathomable. Like any business, they deserve a raise, and thus charge more on their goods as they gain experience.

Is the hobby expensive…YEAH…but it is very rewarding! And thus is well worth it in my opinion.

[CJSchumacher]

Re: CW reenacting Economics 101

On average, inflation in the United States is 5%, although some years are greater then others. So on average the prices in the seven-year span from 1997-2003 would have rose 30%.

I know the Fed has worked hard over the last three years, but Damn!! If that's the case...remind me to move!! ;)

Actually, the Consumer Price Index is the most widely used and standard measure of inflation. Its averaged 2% over the last three years and 2.4% for the last 5 and 10 years on an annual basis. You'll have to cut your number in half.

[NY Pvt]

Re: CW reenacting Economics 101

Chris,

I took the rate from my old text book from Economics class, Yeah, the CPI is used to figure that out. Perhaps over the past several years it was not so high, I assume they did the average from 50 or 100 years or so worth of data, since there were periods when inflation was in the double digits (ex. 1979-80 when it reached 13.5%).

Whatever it was the past few years...it is expected to rise and is (just look at the exchange rate for Greenbacks and Euros). When you move just don't move to Europe.

Sorry Moderators if this is off topic.

[CJSchumacher]

Re: CW reenacting Economics 101

Sorry Moderators if this is off topic.

Hey...its the sinks!

[flattop32355]

Re: CW reenacting Economics 101

I know the Fed has worked hard over the last three years, but Damn!! If that's the case...remind me to move!! ;)

Actually, the Consumer Price Index is the most widely used and standard measure of inflation. Its averaged 2% over the last three years and 2.4% for the last 5 and 10 years on an annual basis. You'll have to cut your number in half.

You have to remember to inflate the inflated dollars from each previous year to get the true end result. At 5% for a seven year period would be $129.99, not $127. At 2.4% the result would be $111.83.

Hope this helps with your ciphering. :)

[tmattimore]

Re: What kind of future market are we creating

An interesting turn indeed. I am almost sorry I started it but if the moderators don't pull it I will carry on. Of the price increases I mentioned most have occured in the last two years. So I don't think it is inflation driven as much as the industry has atrophied. I am sure a similar situation is occuring in the apparel industry as well as the leather goods trade. Demand from reenactors is miniscule compared with what it would take to keep an industry alive and well. As an example in the 1850's and 60's the U.S. shoe industry was constantly growing there fore people invented new equipment to supply that industry. Splitting machines, pegging machines, sewing machines, die cutting machines, outsole stitchers and even the factory building itself came from a burgeoning demand for product both domestic and export. An industry like that could easliy support niche makers for small product lines. Today we are faced with one sole tanner, one or two suppliers of raw wool for looms that are not made here any more. As industry has atophied competion has decreased to where prices from the few remaining suppliers and makers goes up even though overall demand has gone down. For example when USM purchased Hudson shoe machine last year the new owner had a 30,000 sq. ft. warehouse of old used shoe manufacturing machinery broken up and sold as scrap so as to keep it off the market and help keep the prices high.
I am not whining because I still love going to the shop every day and it still seems that the days fly by and I don't call anyone boss.
Tom Mattimore

[58 lorenz]

Re: What kind of future market are we creating

I agree with Mr. Potter's premise. These high-end items are made by extremely skilled and talented people, and when they are gone, will there be new people with the necessary skills and equipment to carry on? Will there still be the demand in 30 years? I'm not going to put my Sekala leathers on a shelf and just look at them, but I'm sure that if I take proper care of them, some day when I am done with them, they will still be worth a decent sum.

Doug Price
199th Michigan