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  • #1

    California Prosecuting Lyle Gun owner for BSA Demo

    I am an active living historian and reenactor in California, and have recently been made aware of a very serious threat to our hobby. Please read the following and act if you can.

    The California Department of Justice has improperly advised the Department of Fish & Game to confiscate an original antique cannon (Lyle Gun) and charge the owner with possession of a “DESTRUCTIVE DEVICE”. Subsequently, a Sacramento area District Attorney has picked up the case and is taking it to court on November 1, 2007.

    They are misinterpreting the law to include any firearm 60 caliber or larger to be classified as a DESTRUCTIVE DEVICE, which includes, but is not limited to, muzzle loading black powder .69 caliber muskets, muzzle loading black powder shotguns, and antique muzzle loading black powder cannons (and replicas thereof). We all know that primarily because these antique firearms do not used any type of fixed ammunition that they do not fall into this category; however, it appears that they are attempting to swing a new direction.

    The person unlawfully detained (originally handcuffed) and whose property unlawfully confiscated was performing a cannon demonstration to a troop of Boy Scouts, something he has done many times over the years and in an area safe & legal to do so.

    For more details, and/or to provide any legal assistance you may be able to offer, please contact Mark Evon immediately at nickevon@sbcglobal.net

    This could set a dangerous precedent that we all want to avoid. We are of course all hoping it is simply a misinterpretation of the law, which can be quickly cleared up in court, however, without assistance or proper legal representation, this could get ugly real fast.

    Thank you very much for your time and consideration of this matter, it is deeply appreciated.

    Sincerely,

    Anthony A. Variz
    (a concerned reenactor)
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: California Prosecuting Lyle Gun owner for BSA Demo

    Anthony,
    I've adjusted this subject heading to more accurately identify the issue you posted about. I think it a little premature to run about shouting that the sky is falling on the Civil War Reenacting hobby. It does sound like an interesting situation and one that would probably be worth looking into. If you come across any additional information, especially links to news items, the case number, etc. please feel free to share them but please try to do so in a calm, measured manner. Thank you.

    Please feel free to specific information about this particular situation since at present there simply isn't enough information to determine how if this actually relates to the hobby or not. In the meantime, lets avoid turning this into a discussion of modern politics.
    Last edited by AZReenactor; 10-23-2007, 09:37 AM. Reason: Additional clarification.
    Troy Groves "AZReenactor"
    1st California Infantry Volunteers, Co. C

    So, you think that scrap in the East is rough, do you?
    Ever consider what it means to be captured by Apaches?

    Comment

    • #3
      Re: California Prosecuting Lyle Gun owner for BSA Demo

      Anthony,

      You may want to pass this story on to the owner of this website, he is an attorney - http://armsandthelaw.com/ I would also suggest contacting the NRA and making them aware of this.
      Jim Kindred

      Comment

      • #4
        Re: California Prosecuting Lyle Gun owner for BSA Demo

        Troy-

        I agree with your statement about being overly "premature" on this,
        and that it probably won't affect ACW reenacting, however, if the case was won
        by the DA, there's a good chance it very well could affect the Rev War reenacting
        community in that state.

        Cheers

        Jeff Prechtel
        Jeff Prechtel

        A work of art which did not begin in emotion is not art.
        -Cezanne

        Comment

        • #5
          Re: California Prosecuting Lyle Gun owner for BSA Demo

          Jeff,
          While there are a great many cases and legislation that could theoretically affect reenacting (especially in California) at any time, I think it important to get the facts and details before racing to sound the public alarm. Stories about crying wolf come to mind.

          I certainly want to learn more about this case and its potential implications, but think it important to get more facts before drawing conclusions about what may or may not be its threat to the reenacting hobby. At this point we don't even know what the state's case is, it is very likely that there is more at play here than has been disclosed so far.
          Troy Groves "AZReenactor"
          1st California Infantry Volunteers, Co. C

          So, you think that scrap in the East is rough, do you?
          Ever consider what it means to be captured by Apaches?

          Comment

          • #6
            Re: California Prosecuting Lyle Gun owner for BSA Demo

            I agree that this needs more info provided, but the Republik of Kalifornia's gov't isn't gun freindly to begin with and should this precedent be set that Anthony speaks of many .60 caliber and larger weapons could be banned. Iwouldn't put this past the political machine of Kalifornia to try something like this. ROK has already banned those lethal bayonet lugs and flash hiders. I don't think it premature! Who would have thought this about CEPA standards for automobiles.
            Last edited by JimKindred; 10-23-2007, 12:47 PM. Reason: Trying to keep thread on current topic.
            [FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=DarkSlateGray][SIZE=3]Michael Phillips, GGG Grandson of
            Pvt Edmond Phillips, 44th NCT, Co E, "The Turtle Paws"[/SIZE]
            [SIZE=2]Mustered in March 1862
            Paroled at Appomattox C.H. Virginia, April 15, 1865[/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT]

            [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3][COLOR=Navy][B]"Good, now we'll have news from Hell before breakfast."[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]
            Was Gen Sherman's response upon hearing the capture and execution of 3 reporters who had followed from Atlanta, by the rebels.
            The execution part turned out to be false.[COLOR=DarkRed] [B]Dagg Nabbit![/B][/COLOR][/FONT]

            Comment

            • #7
              Re: California Prosecuting Lyle Gun owner for BSA Demo

              This is exactly what the CA code has to say about destructive devices -

              12301.(a)(3)

              Any weapon of a caliber greater than 0.60 caliber which fires fixed ammunition, or any ammunition therefor, other than a shotgun(smooth or rifled bore) conforming to the definition of a "destructive device" found in subsection (b) of Section 479.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, shotgun ammunition (single projectile or shot), antique rifle, or an antique cannon. For purposes of this section, the term "antique cannon" means any cannon manufactured before January 1, 1899, which has been rendered incapable of firing or for which ammunition is no longer available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade. The term "antique rifle" means a firearm conforming to the definition of "antique firearm" in Section 479.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.

              From my reading of Title 27 of the Federal Code I believe CA law enforcement is stretching the Federal Code a bit in this instance. ATF does not consider replica or original Civil War cannons as firearms or destructive devices according to the agent I just got off the phone with.
              Last edited by JimKindred; 10-23-2007, 11:59 AM.
              Jim Kindred

              Comment

              • #8
                Re: California Prosecuting Lyle Gun owner for BSA Demo

                Originally posted by Prodical Reb View Post
                I agree that this needs more info provided, but the Republik of Kalifornia's gov't isn't gun freindly to begin with and should this precedent be set that Anthony speaks of many .60 caliber and larger weapons could be banned. Iwouldn't put this past the political machine of Kalifornia to try something like this. ROK has already banned those lethal bayonet lugs and flash hiders. I don't think it premature! Who would have thought this about CEPA standards for automobiles.
                Maybe we could discuss this like grownups and leave out the modern-day politics.
                Peter Julius
                North State Rifles

                "North Carolina - a vale of humility between two mountains of conceit." Unknown author

                Comment

                • #9
                  Re: California Prosecuting Lyle Gun owner for BSA Demo

                  Unfortunately you can only seperate this topic from modern politics so far because modern politics is what causes this problem. However I believe you are correct in reference to the post two previous to yours.
                  Jim Kindred

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Re: California Prosecuting Lyle Gun owner for BSA Demo

                    Gentlemen, I do deeply appreciate your valid interest in this concern and value your input, suggestions, and help.

                    Since my own credibility seems to be in question (i.e. chicken little & shepherd boy references) I will attempt to add more information. First of all, I have 25+ years in the law enforcement field. I do not cry wolf (lie) or panic easily (the sky is falling). I am a life member of the NRA and an NRA certified firearms instrutor. I value my rights and freedoms. I believe they are worth fighting for and protecting.

                    That said, Mark Evon is also in a law enforcement career. When he demanded to know what the charges were, the Fish & Game agents could not come up with any so they removed the cuffs and released him. However, they did confiscate his cannon.

                    The DA has offered to drop all charges and give him back his cannon provided he registers it as a Destructive Device (DD). THIS IS NOT A VIABLE SOLUTION! This also serves to point out that there was no other underlying reason why this happened. The DA would never let him off that easy (if you can call admitting our relics/antiques are DD's) if he had committed an illegal act of any kind.

                    Needless to say, Mark must fight this in court and win. If some of you want to sit back and watch thinking you are safe because this is California, you are sadly mistaken.

                    Respectfully,

                    Anthony Variz

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Re: California Prosecuting Lyle Gun owner for BSA Demo

                      Gentlemen, thank you so much for your input, suggestions, and help on this very serious matter.

                      I am not used to having my credibility challenged (chicken little "sky is falling")or being called a liar (shepherd boy "crying wolf"), so I will attempt to provide more viable information.

                      I have 25+ years in law enforcement and related fields. I do not panic easily nor do I lie. I am a life member of the NRA and an NRA certified fireamrs instructor. I believe our rights and freedoms are worth fighting for and that this is a serious issue.

                      Mark Evon is also in the law enforcement field. When he was cuffed and about to be stuffed into a car by Fish & Games agents, he demanded to know what the charges were. When they could not come up with any, they released him and confiscated his cannon.

                      The DA has offered to drop the charges and return his cannon providing he registers it as a Destructive Device (DD). This is NOT a viable option! It also serves to illustrate that there were no other underlying causes for this to happen. The DA would never let him off that easy (if you can call registering our relics/antiques as DD's easy) if any other crime had been committed.

                      Mark must fight this in court and win, anything less hurts all of us, not just Californians. You need a big wake-up call if you do not understand this simply concept.

                      Please contact Mark if you feel you can help. Please do not waste his time if you are not willing to provide meaningful help, he is getting swamped with inquires at this time and has been spending hours on the telephone and emails each day.

                      Again, thank you for helping spread the word to generate awareness and support.

                      Respectfully,

                      Anthony Variz

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Re: California Prosecuting Lyle Gun owner for BSA Demo

                        Now who would he be registering this as a destructive device with? BATF does not consider it a destructive device and in all probability hand his paperwork back to him. Does CA maintain a seperate record of destructive devices on top of what BATF has?

                        I am very familiar with most of this having been an FFL and NFA firearms owner for over 25 years.

                        "I am not used to having my credibility challenged (chicken little "sky is falling")or being called a liar (shepherd boy "crying wolf"), so I will attempt to provide more viable information."

                        As far as your credibility goes I am sure no one meant any offense however since you have not posted on this board before today few if any really know who you are or your background. Credibility is not something automatically given on this board.
                        Last edited by JimKindred; 10-23-2007, 03:50 PM.
                        Jim Kindred

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          Re: California Prosecuting Lyle Gun owner for BSA Demo

                          Hallo!

                          Even though this is posted in the Sinks, IMHO it runs contrary to the AC Forum policy of "no modern politics," and I am locking it.

                          Curt
                          Looking for Civil War Discussions Today Mess
                          Curt Schmidt
                          In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

                          -Hard and sharp as flint...secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster.
                          -Haplogroup R1b M343 (Subclade R1b1a2 M269)
                          -Pointless Folksy Wisdom Mess, Oblio Lodge #1
                          -Vastly Ignorant
                          -Often incorrect, technically, historically, factually.

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Confiscated Cannon Returned

                            Hello all,

                            Just wanted to get the word out as many of you have expressed deep concern about the confiscated cannon.

                            Also, many thanks to all who helped with this matter, the response nation-wide was tremendous.

                            An NRA attorney met with the DA's office and convinced them to drop all charges as they had no viable case.

                            They issued a "Finding of Factual Innocence" and gave the Cannon Back the same day. According to Mark, the guys were very contrite and accommodating.

                            Who knows how this might have gone had Mark not had legal representation, as well as being armed with information provided by reenactors from all over the United States.

                            Again, thank you all very much! We need to watch out for each other.

                            Be well and have a great Christmas~ Anthony

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              Re: Confiscated Cannon Returned

                              Anthony, I know your new but the rules here are you need to sign your full name!

                              BTW, which confiscated cannon are you talking about? Thanks!
                              [FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=DarkSlateGray][SIZE=3]Michael Phillips, GGG Grandson of
                              Pvt Edmond Phillips, 44th NCT, Co E, "The Turtle Paws"[/SIZE]
                              [SIZE=2]Mustered in March 1862
                              Paroled at Appomattox C.H. Virginia, April 15, 1865[/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT]

                              [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3][COLOR=Navy][B]"Good, now we'll have news from Hell before breakfast."[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]
                              Was Gen Sherman's response upon hearing the capture and execution of 3 reporters who had followed from Atlanta, by the rebels.
                              The execution part turned out to be false.[COLOR=DarkRed] [B]Dagg Nabbit![/B][/COLOR][/FONT]

                              Comment

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