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Indian?pakistani Muskets: Unsafe at any speed or not?

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  • Indian?pakistani Muskets: Unsafe at any speed or not?

    Hallo!

    Without a definitive investigation and analysis, we have been beset with rumor and speculation about the causes and circumstances of an Indian-made musket blank-fire explosion.

    While we wait for factual information, the growing concern or issue, IMHO, is the question what exactly is the "safety" of these Indian or Pakistani imports among us?
    I am a bit concerned, maybe prematurely, that the several importers and several more outlets for these 18th and 19th century replicas have not come forward with public postings or comments as to the manufacturing and/or "proofing" of their imported products.
    I do believe it is "too early" to expect much, and that the perceived "silence" is just the legitimate state of affairs until factual information comes out.

    Freak accident. Owner/operator error. Etc., etc., aside...

    In brief and to over-generalize...

    Gun barrels are designed to withstand pressure partially due to the grade of steel- their typically being a progression of hardness as well as "limits" on the impurities or "inclusions" permitted in the steel itself (for example ascending Rifle Barrel Grade , Aircraft Grade, and Nuclear Grade).

    Typically, a rifle barrel is made of a harder steel, that is extruded into solid rods. The rods are then formed, planed/milled, bored, and rifled.

    As far as I know, to cut down on price, the Indians and/or Pakistani are using milder lowergrade steel, with a larger number of inclusions, that is rolled flat, formed round, and then welded to make the barrel.
    IMHO, as the steel is rolled, the inclusions get rolled longer, creating potential weak lines in the barrel wall. And when the "tube" is formed, depending upon the quality of the "weld," there is also the potential for separation under reduced or minimal pressures.
    And with no proofing, there is no testing under even mild stress.
    I say "stress" because failure can be accumulative over time and not instant.

    Amid all of the inuendo, speculation, and lack of concrete information, we would not want to see ANY vendor or distributor trying to be of service to the Civil War Community harmed or suffer needlessly.

    However, IMHO, those vendors and distributors need to eventually come forward as soon as is possible to prove or reassure us, that their Indian or Pakistani replicas are indeed as safe as a firearm can actually be, and that the lad next to us in line is not holding a grenade excused as being a better bargain than an Italian import?

    Others' mileage may vary...

    Curt
    Curt Schmidt
    In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

    -Hard and sharp as flint...secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster.
    -Haplogroup R1b M343 (Subclade R1b1a2 M269)
    -Pointless Folksy Wisdom Mess, Oblio Lodge #1
    -Vastly Ignorant
    -Often incorrect, technically, historically, factually.

  • #2
    Re: Indian?pakistani Muskets: Unsafe at any speed or not?

    The proprietor of The Middlesex Village Trading Company can tell you all you want to know about Indian/Pakastani replica firearms. He sells 'em but deals with a particular maker and has some input into the quality control process.



    In any case, one will usually get the quality they pay for. I've had a used Indian made carbine go "poof" in my face and it wasn't user error other than firing the thing in the first place. Sending photos of the markings on the dissassembled carbine parts to the feller mentioned above got me the maker's name and their corner-cutting business practices. In this case there was a defective breech plug with some metal missing on one side that the builder had threaded over anyway and installed on the carbine in question, eventually allowing gas to blow back into Bubba's whiskers, likely the previous owner's as well, and was probably the reason he sold it. I also have an Armisport Sharps carbine that another reenactor from Illinois sold me "in very good condition"..."seldom fired", but with a pin hole in the side of the breech block just below the cone. But that's another story.
    Last edited by Southern Cal; 10-27-2007, 01:54 AM.
    ~Southern Cal~
    aka: Lawrence J. Bach

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Indian?pakistani Muskets: Unsafe at any speed or not?

      We've had problems over here with the 'Indian' Enfields of various batches in the past. Problems include poor workmanship, ill fitting stocks and woodwork made from pine.

      All black powder weapons must be proof tested here in the UK, so the guns are ostensibly 'safe'. However, please don't buy any second hand Indian weapons (as if you would if you read this forum anyway) if they have the cleaning screw on the side of the cone mount - they are absolutely deadly in the line. Check also the ramrods - it has been known for the tips to come off during 'load in nine times', although doing the damn drill right, as so many signally fail to do in the UK would negate firing the weapon because your little finger would have realised there was no tip on returning the rammer.

      75% of British CW re-enactors have Indian Enfields here. Ridiculous. They are only fit for wall-hanging or drill spares.

      And the barrels are probably thinner than yours in the States, because they're all smoothbored here.
      Chris O'Brien

      Scalawag Mess
      Volunteer Company
      [URL="http://www.aesoc.org"]American Eagle Society[/URL]

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Indian?pakistani Muskets: Unsafe at any speed or not?

        The barrels are not "proofed" as we would understand the term here. Curt lays out the case articulately, I think. Some of these are wall hangers that are converted to shooters by drilling a hole in the bolster. What do you expect?
        Craig L Barry
        Editor, The Watchdog, a non-profit 501[c]3
        Co-author (with David Burt) Suppliers to the Confederacy
        Author, The Civil War Musket: A Handbook for Historical Accuracy
        Member, Company of Military Historians

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Indian?pakistani Muskets: Unsafe at any speed or not?

          Hallo!

          Just a few pictures of the burst gun:







          Curt
          Curt Schmidt
          In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

          -Hard and sharp as flint...secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster.
          -Haplogroup R1b M343 (Subclade R1b1a2 M269)
          -Pointless Folksy Wisdom Mess, Oblio Lodge #1
          -Vastly Ignorant
          -Often incorrect, technically, historically, factually.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Indian?pakistani Muskets: Unsafe at any speed or not?

            Wow! Up until now I thought that there had to have been a bore obstruction that caused this - now I'm not sure. Since there is no stretching or bulging apparent and the rip is pretty much straight it looks more like a BAD lap weld.... Are they welding or boring the barrels in India/Pakistan? And what the heck happened with the breechplug?
            Thomas Pare Hern
            Co. A, 4th Virginia
            Stonewall Brigade

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Indian?pakistani Muskets: Unsafe at any speed or not?

              It is hard to believe that it was not an obstruction. To produce that much damage the powder had to expend all of its energy out the side. If it was only 110 grains of powder an unobstructed piece of conduit could have held it. Perhaps the weld was open and an amount of powder got between the stock and the barrel that then ignited blowing the barrel from the outside?

              Thanks,
              Mark C. Foster
              Thanks,

              Mark C. Foster
              Flint, Mi

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Indian?pakistani Muskets: Unsafe at any speed or not?

                By the way!

                Where was it purchased? And/or made by who?

                Thanks,
                Mark C. Foster
                Thanks,

                Mark C. Foster
                Flint, Mi

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Indian?pakistani Muskets: Unsafe at any speed or not?

                  Hallo!

                  I am not seeing a breech plug. Typically breech plugs are coarse threaded and roughly 1/2 to 3/4 inch in length or so.
                  If I see the image corectly, there is no breechplug. The end of the barrel appears to have a "breech plate" for lack of a better term/word integral with the tang... possibly soldered or welded to the breech end of the barrel.

                  Cynically, and unknowingly... the "barrel" appears to (possibly) be extruded mild or soft steel conduit. The stress fracture, IMHO, is remarkably sharp and crisp, unlike half a dozen or so other burst barrels I have examined that appear to have somewhat rough, slightly jagged, uneven edges rather than a "crisp" clean split line.

                  Bu then again, if these imports are truly moreso "non-guns" and "non-firing decorators," they do not require actual "proofing," letting alone "breech plugs," let alone "barrels."

                  But again, I am unknowing and cynical here- we have a few pictures and no investigative, qualitative, or metalurgical testing facts (nor do I anticipate any) and...

                  Others' mileage will vary.

                  Curt
                  Curt Schmidt
                  In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

                  -Hard and sharp as flint...secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster.
                  -Haplogroup R1b M343 (Subclade R1b1a2 M269)
                  -Pointless Folksy Wisdom Mess, Oblio Lodge #1
                  -Vastly Ignorant
                  -Often incorrect, technically, historically, factually.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Indian?pakistani Muskets: Unsafe at any speed or not?

                    I know we've talked about getting feedback from the vendors of the India/Pakistani "smoke-poles"....has anyone actually contacted Loyalist Arms, Middlesex Village, or the Discriminating General with regards to these things?

                    A couple things occur to me based on the Revlist "war" going on...many people are in defense of non-firing imports, since a gunsmith has tapped a hole for a cone or bored a whole for a flashpan. Bottom-line...it does not take a gunsmith to do this! And just because a presumably "competent" gunsmith does make these tubes fireable, does not mean they are such!

                    Note: just because an individual sews, does not make them a tailor.

                    It is imperative that as a community we come to a concensus, about the use of these pieces...If we choose to continually use weapons that have no pedigree/proofing, one of these days there will be serious consequences.

                    If these companies are not willing to work with the community, then we need to make some pretty hard decisions in effort to protect our people!

                    Paul
                    Last edited by Stonewall_Greyfox; 10-30-2007, 03:17 PM. Reason: edit
                    Paul B. Boulden Jr.


                    RAH VA MIL '04
                    (Loblolly Mess)
                    [URL="http://23rdva.netfirms.com/welcome.htm"]23rd VA Vol. Regt.[/URL]
                    [URL="http://www.virginiaregiment.org/The_Virginia_Regiment/Home.html"]Waggoner's Company of the Virginia Regiment [/URL]

                    [URL="http://www.military-historians.org/"]Company of Military Historians[/URL]
                    [URL="http://www.moc.org/site/PageServer"]Museum of the Confederacy[/URL]
                    [URL="http://www.historicsandusky.org/index.html"]Historic Sandusky [/URL]

                    Inscription Capt. Archibold Willet headstone:

                    "A span is all that we can boast, An inch or two of time, Man is but vanity and dust, In all his flower and prime."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Indian?pakistani Muskets: Unsafe at any speed or not?

                      Wow. That's one sold through Military Heritage (Discriminating Gen'l). I have the exact same model. Mine has had no problems at all and I am getting ready to try a ball from it, although I may not now. Their website has testimonials of many users that claim they shoot balls with good results, but that does look like a seam burst. Initally, were someone to bring that into my shop, I would say it was too heavy a charge with a ball in it, or a stoout charge of fine powder, like 4F. On mine, the breech plug is threaded in. That one appears to be merely a plate welded or soldered on. That alone seems to differentiate mine from this one. Mine is Indian.

                      The Blockade Runner toyed with selling Indian muskets a few years ago. They ordered one that had a solid cone, and was not vented. I replaced the cone with a real one and drilled the vent. It fires very nicely, but the barrel is smooth bored and not all that thick. For blanks only I determined it to be safe. But the next ones they ordered from the same place arrived with black-painted aluminum barrels, wooden rammers, and very iffy springs. Same seller, different guns & different quality. After that, they decided to give up on the idea since they would be placing their name and liability onto what could be really poor quality. I have "de-farbbed" one of the Indian Enfields sold by Middlesex and it turned out great-looking. In som eways it was better looking than the Armis I do. But the smooth bore is wrong and the lack of quality control in the steel makes me wonder how much it can stand. Also, the one pictured at the Middlesex site is like those that we decided not to carry through The Blockade Runner.

                      Something else that might well have happened as the guy holding it appears to be in uniform, a double or even triple charge. We have all done it by accident when we don't go off in a volley and don't realize it. These big .75s are using roughly 90-110 grs anyway. Pour in another 100 grs or even a 3rd charge and even without wadding these poorer quality barrels can't be expected to hold.
                      Last edited by ; 10-30-2007, 02:54 PM. Reason: Another scenario.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Indian?pakistani Muskets: Unsafe at any speed or not?

                        Todd, I agree with you, it looks like an inadvertent (?) over charge. Now, you are shown as a gunsmith, have you unbreeched your musket? How are the threads? I do not own one of the Indian/Pakistani muskets and likely never will since I have heard from too many qualified black powder gunmakers and gunsmiths with years of experience in their field that some are okay but too many show bad threading and low quality steel used in the barrels. I am also qualified to breech barrels and have done so six times. (Actually just finished another a couple of months ago - that makes 7). It is a straight forward process as you know but too easy to take short cuts. Like you, I feel that the plate shown with the tang attached looks too much like it was just welded to the breech of the barrel - not an acceptable practice under any circumstances. It is possible that the split started at the breech and ran forward?

                        Herr Schmidt, by all appearances, I believe that your terminology of "breech plate" is pretty accurate. It doesn't appear to have a threaded plug at all.
                        Thomas Pare Hern
                        Co. A, 4th Virginia
                        Stonewall Brigade

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Indian?pakistani Muskets: Unsafe at any speed or not?

                          I have not pulled the plug on mine - yet. I only got it a few months back from the Discerning General. I'd always wanted a Bess but the $800+ price kept one out of my hands until I bumped into their site. Theirs are "wall hangers" but according to them, are safe to shoot although they won't put that in writing. Priced in the neighborhood of $500, and with no vent, they are easy to buy and can be shipped to your door almost anywhere. They specified that theirs are used for firing, and they supplied the ones used in "Pirates of the Carribbean" and some other films where they were shot. Mine has a good thick-walled barrel and when i drilled the vent I measured the rammer to locate the vent and there is indeed a plug in it. From the back it appears to be threaded. But, I may pull it to be sure after seeing that one. I took mine apart and the wood is a cheap type with a blond tone like the burst one. The inletting is really poor as well, but is quite close to originals I have taken down. The frizzen is hard and the springs are of good quality, which were the main things I was interested in.

                          My guess is that the barrel on the burst one was just a rolled tube and it was not properly skelped/lapped and welded. Perhaps, the vent happened to have been drilled on the seam, starting the break there. It appears the seam splits from back in the vent area if not the breech itself. If the tube happened to be posistioned so that the vent was on the seam, it was only a matter of time regardless of the charges.

                          Incidentally, there are a number "Tower" pistols of the 1757 flintlock designs out there. I see them all the time with octagonal and round barrels. A friend bought me one years ago and before I shot it I took it apart (thank goodness) only to find that the breech was one of the plates stuck in and tack welded. When I poured water in, water trickled all around the plate! I made a heavier plate of 1018 steel and fit it in and then ran a couple of heavy beads around the whole seam to make a solid breech. After many firings using a swaged-fitted ball and up to 90 grs of FFg, it has held. It can be done this way, but a threaded plug is far superior. I do not recommend this method (welding) but done properly it can hold quite well.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Indian?pakistani Muskets: Unsafe at any speed or not?

                            A simple comparison between Indian and Italian steel can be made by examining the available repro bayonets. Italian steel is far superior IMHO in strength and weight. After seeing those pictures, I wouldn't even consider a musket manufactured using rolled and welded steel. It seems to be another liability akin to the six wing musket caps.

                            So what's next? Are the manufacturers/distributors addressing this problem or do we have to wait for injury/calamity like we did with the cap issue?


                            Rick Atwood
                            Rick Atwood
                            23rd Reg't
                            Va. Vol. Infy

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Indian?pakistani Muskets: Unsafe at any speed or not?

                              Thing is, if your Indian or Paki musket which was meant to be a "wall hanger" blows up, just who are you going to sue? That is why The Blockade Runner decided not to sell these. They sell some that are "wall hangers" but we do not make them operable and they are listed as "non-firing" on the website. All it will take is 1 of these to blow apart and the sutler that sold it is out of business and the entire sutlery industry will take on more insurance and raise all prices to cover the expense to protect themselves.

                              As we discovered, there is no way to really know with 100% certainty what steel is used and what methods are used making the barrel if it is coming from one of these places. The seller may "say" it is safe, but was he there and is there a proof stamp on the barrel and does he really have a contractual agreement that forces certain qualities to be kept from the manufacturer? BRI ordered the same gun from the same Indian seller a few months apart and had vast differences in the quality of what arrived. Like I said, the first one had a steel barrel and the next 2 had aluminum barrels. Personally, I'd trust the steel version I got working as a blank-only gun for myself and may one day buy it off them to have a spare around. But even with blanks I would not touch off a 50-60 gr charge in an aluminum conduit pipe!

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