Indian?pakistani Muskets: Unsafe at any speed or not?

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: Indian?pakistani Muskets: Unsafe at any speed or not?

Todd,

From your correspondence, it sounds like you have little faith in the Paki/India tubes...

All,

This leads to the question of how we protect ourselves and others at events...any thoughts?

Paul

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Indian?pakistani Muskets: Unsafe at any speed or not?

Hallo!

IMHO...
Sadly, we have created a Frankenstein monster here... seeing the development of a market niche in our Hobbies for lower priced alternatives to Italian reproductions (or custom-built) work priced increasingly higher due to the decline of the U.S. Dollar.
"Supply fills demand."
"We" wanted a lower cost line of firearms, and the Market stepped up to fill that demand tip-toeing and looking the other way as "decorators" entered our ranks as fully functioning firearms when they were not designed or produced to be so.
And the ultimate end, is putting the abnormal brain in the Monster, and waiting for it to run amuck through the village.

On the one hand, we are having a discussion based largely on one univestigated, unfactual, incident of an exploded flintlock import that seems to "defy" our conventional knowledge or "wisdom" on several counts beginning with the 'safety tolerance" of these so-called "decorator" imports and what actually "caused" this catastrophic detonation- user, or product, or both?

However, and still IMHO, "our" power to police, regulate, and restrict 18th and 19th century reenacting use of these imports seems, at the moment, a moot issue, albeit a premature one. And our power to investigate the ACTUAL and FACTUAL "safety" of these so-called "decorators" produced by a number of small shops also seems non-existent.
Meaning, while there are suits pending against importers of Spanish made "in-lines" that burst at the breech, I am aware of no "ACW" import from either Italy OR India that has burst and caused injuries to the owner and other folks in litigation.

So, as a result, IMHO, it will take either more of the same, or something more "concrete" than our speculating on a board or forum in the form of AWI or ACW imports failing, injuring folks, and creating lawsuits to effect change.
In the meantime, it appears to be a few lads posting on boards, and the 18th and 19th century Hobbies and their vendors appearently assuming a head in the sand posture...?

Then again, this may be just a tempest in a teapot, full of a small and temporary sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Others' mileage will vary...

Curt
Former Civil War Longarms Builder Mess

[guad42]

Re: Indian?pakistani Muskets: Unsafe at any speed or not?

Not sure if this is helpful, but here goes. I was present to see two of the Loyalist Arms '42 Smoothbores used during a two-day live fire excercise in April. Now, I'm not saying they were fired constantly, but over the course of two days several dozen balls were fire from each musket. No incidents.

Now, I have spoken to and exchanged messages with a number of folks on the Loyalist product (this model anyways). Nobody seems to know where they originate (other than Pakaindiestan). But, I have blank fire mine through several events and was present for the abovementioned live fire shoot and have never witnessed an incident.

I am new to these boards, but I am not ignorant of guns. I do not believe that anything compares to what the Italians produce in regards to strength and material. But, in fairness to Loyalist, their budget products seem serviceable, within reason.

-Sam Kilborn Dolan

[D Harrelson]

Re: Indian?pakistani Muskets: Unsafe at any speed or not?

I have live fired both the Loyalist P53 Enfield and their Lorenz rifle and outside the fact they couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, found them acceptable to charge a load ( this was in the course of "proofing" them as their vendor suggested). Both were Pac imports. I bought a flea market '77 Charleville from a locally well-known (and impoverished) NSSA member which had "MADE IN BELGIUM" stamped all over it... any of you hunters remember Belgian Brownings and the price they now command? Sent it to John Zimmerman to get some de-farbing and he wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot-pole. Said it was nothing more than a piece of conduit and unsafe for any purpose except as a wall hanger. My point is, not where it's made but how. Know your vendor, his reputation, and a modicum about firearms. ALWAYS proof your weapon.

D Harrelson

Who is still D Harrelson

[paulcalloway]

Re: Indian?pakistani Muskets: Unsafe at any speed or not?

D Harrelson

Who is still D Harrelson

Don -
We've been asking our users to sign their full first and last name since the advent of the forums back in 2001. Please cooperate - it really has raised the level of discussion around here.

[Todd Watts]

Re: Indian?pakistani Muskets: Unsafe at any speed or not?

We do need to realize that yes, we are speculating on what caused the "catostrophic failure" (as gunsmiths call it) pictured here. Some of us are smiths or at least have a good enough working knowledge of musketry to make educated guesses, but we do not know. For all we know the shooter had poured in 500 grs of 4F and plugged the barrel with mud before shooting it. I have seen these sorts of "CFs" and seldom do I really think the shooter is "coming clean" when telling me how it happened.

I think what we do need to do at this point is to be aware up front that there is questionable liability in case we do have one of these blow apart. At best, we might be able to get a replacement from the sutler that sold it to us, providing we still have receipts. If the sutler took a "wall hanger" and made it operable, this is not the fault of the Pakis or Indians or any other maker of the wall hanger - it is the liability of the sutler that did it. Now, you have someone to sue out of existence. But, if they are selling cheap poor quality guns from some questionable source that are sold to the Sutler as a "shooter" and it blows up, you are going to have problems trying to get justice. Be aware what you are shooting and what is in the line beside you. Keep an eye on our newbies and what they are buying. Face it, for the hobby to grow or even survive, we need cheap prices or we simply will not get new participants. I won't discourage anyone from getting one like this one, but will keep my eye on it.

Some of you know of my attempts to reproduce some other guns. I am trying to find out who in India makes these guns for the lock and smaller parts, but intend to handle to barrel myself because that is the dangerous part. Poor quality springs or hammers are an annoyance. Poor quality barrels are plain dangerous.

[ACo.]

Re: Indian?pakistani Muskets: Unsafe at any speed or not?

Todd, you say that "Poor quality springs or hammers are an annoyance. Poor quality barrels are plain dangerous." While I agree with the later part of your statement I can not agree with the first. A bad lock is a deal killer and a business buster. A soft tumbler or a sear spring that is too soft makes a gun dangerous very quickly, no matter how good or safe the barrel is. Cheap out on something as important to function and safety as the lock and you will have more returns than you can handle. There are plenty of foundries in this country that are familiar with casting of quality lock parts and the materials needed to make it reliable. Then, of course, there is assembly, talk to Jim Chambers about that. There is no "cheap" good reproduction as the subject of this thread shows. I wish you all the luck in the world with your project and hope you can carry it at a good price without putting yourself into bankruptcy. Good quality barrels and locks alone will run you, the maker, almost as much as that India musket cost it's owner. I wish I could meet you and we could sit and talk about the project some time, it would be a lot of fun (and work!).

[Todd Watts]

Re: Indian?pakistani Muskets: Unsafe at any speed or not?

Yeah, should have included the sear with the "dangerous" part. So far my research appears that each gun I am wanting to recreate will be retailing around $1200-$1400 for me to use USA parts and me do the assembly and stock. And, that is after my having to pay up-front roughly $5000 to get the first batches made. Obviously, I have a ways to go to get them to the affordable range. All I am after right now is the "Liege" guns, also called Dresdens or Belgians back then. A fairly simple butt-ugly musket that I can cut my teeth on before going after the Lorenz or Pottsdam.