Looking Ahead to Improvement

[SCTiger]

Being the character

I was sure that I would come back to the forum and there wouldn't be one response to this thread, now I will have an hour of solid reading! Thanks to everyone for your great ideas and input. To me "first person" is one of those aspects that we never really "master."

As to you using aliases, I can understand that would be difficult o use another name, my main point was consistency and the ability to turn your modern habits "off." For myself, I would like to adopt a new persona. So get to know me.

In regards to Elizabeth Clark and Hank Trent's posts about civilian first person impressions, I will state this much. I have seen civilian reenactors really carry the event and dazzle the military side, some of the time we are slacked jawed with our responses and two dimensional in our interactions with a well thought out, rehearsed, researched, and devloped civilian immersion role.

That takes me to the "events" and our Tier 1/2 designations, immersion-semi-immersion events. At this point I would like to say that I had one great experience interpreting a 19th Century character, but I haver mostly been a well dressed and properly accoutered, living prop. I hope you appreciated the extra scenery I afforded. I believe that if we are to have full immersion events, then the communication and backdrop stories, along with forum discussions need to be rehearsed, as suggested by E. Clark and Hank Trent. Although some highly functional units might practice first person within their group, they still need to have some familiarness with the other characters, the local area and the "current" events.

Any impression will seem stilted and hokey at first. We are not used to it. People we know are not used to us acting this way, but I believe practice helps. For me this is the biggest challenge in this hobby.

I might also mention stage and film actors. Does any of the techniques that actors use for getting in to character for a film or play, have any applicability for us? Would a course or a actors workshop help us lose the "ham" factor? Alright don't throw rocks at me for that, just throwing out some ideas.

Well at least we're talking about first person.

[Rev]

Re: Portable First Persson- Rethinking the model

Okay, this is anachronistic as all get out:

What about a discussion thread where we are in first person, another where we help one another 'flesh out' the personna, and a third where the more experienced help the newcomers?

[Rob Weaver]

Re: Portable First Persson- Rethinking the model

Kind of like writing letters to each other in quick time?
One of the best first-person interactions I've ever had, within earshot of the public, occured when a friend and I discussed the economic implications of emancipation. He drew on his experiences as a dry-stone layer, and research into the connection between the Irish and dry stone laying as a profession. He knows that I'm Irish, and have done a good bit of research into Irish/black race relations in the early 1800s. The quotes, references and "fur" flew pretty fast, and friendly, but both of us were talking out of a) deeply informed positions and b) a long-standing relationship. We knew how to push each other's buttons and prompt each other. Lest you think this was a 2 minute exchange, it went on for 45 minutes. (Of course, the time we played mumbly-peg while waiting to go into action was first-person,too. But it's harder to talk when someone's throwing a knife at your foot.)

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Portable First Persson- Rethinking the model

Here's a thought:
If an event is going to have folks taking on names different from their own, then have photo-registration and a good website with access to a discussion forum. Registrants will have their name, first-person name, and first-person "bio" or profile info. Participants can get some "banter" going to familiarize themselves with each others' personae in advance.

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Portable First Persson- Rethinking the model

Good idea about the site. It just might work. Remember, you'd have to have the understanding (and/or legal contract even if it is necessary) on the site that what you might say "in 1st Person" might not be how you feel in reality. That way, those that get offended (which there will be plenty of, believe-you-me...) know beforehand that the site is for first-person practice and to treat all communications as such.

Hateful rants shouldn't be allowed either no matter in which person they are in- period or non-period. Political speech should be confined to the politics of the period too.

You know that is bound to happen with a site like that. Someone might try to justify it as period, which it could be construed as such depending on the context and character protrayed.

Gotta prevent 1st-person from slipping into a purposefully hateful/hurtful rant. All 1st person should be of 1860s - period and constructive.

Your comrade- Johnny

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Portable First Persson- Rethinking the model

Good idea about the site. It just might work. Remember, you'd have to have the understanding (and/or legal contract even if it is necessary) on the site that what you might say "in 1st Person" might not be how you feel in reality. That way, those that get offended (which there will be plenty of, believe-you-me...) know beforehand that the site is for first-person practice and to treat all communications as such.

This is one of those "Interpretation vs Immersion" issues. When first person is used as an interpretive tool for the public, modern sensibilities need to be taken into account. I can think of nothing worse than a group of NPS-site tourists being turned-off by "culturally insensitive" first-person remarks by a group of reenactors. At these events, our goal should be to engage the interest of the spectators in the 186X happenings at whatever park, the ACW in general, and, if we do a really good job, spur them to study more on the subject and perhaps support preservation efforts.

However, if I am at an immersion event (sans spectators), I don't expect any "kid glove" treatment for my "delicate 21st Century sensibilities".

[guad42]

Re: Portable First Persson- Rethinking the model

Greg and all,

I found this very interesting reading, especially as I am somewhat new to campaigning and it's many layers. This may sound trite, but recently I attended an event that was a simple immersion scenario in which our unit was standing picket duty and interacting with a group of citizens. Initially I found this a bit daunting, however something very neat happened as part of the scenario which helped me greatly.

One of our members arrived with mail. To my surprise I had two letters addressed to me. One from a cousin asking for five dollars and a litany of other requests, the other from a pal in Columbia, SC sending me two dollars for a debt and keeping me posted on some contacts in South Carolina. This was a nice touch. Suddenly, I was "Sam Dolan" a member of this unit with some friends and relatives in various parts communicating with me. It was a great way to start immersion, without having to layer on a character and do too much method-acting. Now, I have these letters in my haversack, keepsakes to remember that I have a relative in Tennesee and a friend in South Carolina. That, when I am at these events, I can begin this persona by remembering that 19th Century Sam Dolan knows the people in the letters.

Something as simple as placing yourself in the time with something as elementary as a piece of mail might be great for someone like myself just getting started.

Sam Kilborn Dolan

[Hank Trent]

Re: Being the character

In regards to Elizabeth Clark and Hank Trent's posts about civilian first person impressions,

Just to clarify, there was absolutely nothing about civilian first person impressions in my post. Liz covered that very well. Mine was all referring to military, though it was more about the distinction of interpreting to the public vs. trying to accurately portray someone from the past.

By the way, the only reason I didn't comment on your original post was that it seems like a fine idea. Right now, I think the problem is that many reenactors prefer modern socializing, so the various ways of applying a persona are moot for them.

I think folks will find that the basic personas will need adapting more and more to specific circumstances as there's more interest in detail, but it's easy to add those layers as necessary. There really was a difference between the typical Alabamian and the typical Bostonian

Really, I think the whole thing is easier than everyone's making it. Just start out with an event (or sub-group or whatever) where no one says anything modern. That's all you have to do, but you actually have to do it. Not one word about the internet or whatever, no matter how bored or lonely you get.

Some folks will do just fine. Some will feel left out and bored because they don't know what the others are talking about.

But right then, everyone will see what they need to do next time. "If I'd only known more about so-and-so's background, we could have talked better!" So you'll email so-and-so ahead of time and say hey, who are you portraying? Or "if I'd studied what my regiment was doing last month, I could have taken part in the conversation those guys were having." So next time you study. And so forth.

Right now, when modern talk is always an option, first person can seem like a chore, for those on the fence. It's like putting a regiment in the midst of a mainstream event and expecting no one to visit the food vendors or the sutlers or parking lot or wander over to meet-and-greet friends on the other side, vs. taking them way out in the woods for the kind of event where those things just aren't possible. Once there are no modern amenities and they need to function for the weekend with only period gear, they'll figure out pretty quick how to survive, and if they want to keep doing it, they'll have the motivation.

Good idea about the site. It just might work.

For what it's worth, that's been tried a few times with forums and email lists. They seem to peter out fairly quickly, even among those who do first person just fine at events. Not sure why.

Hateful rants shouldn't be allowed either no matter in which person they are in- period or non-period.

Obviously not non-period, since nothing non-period would be allowed. But why not in period, if it fits in context? That was part of the 1860s just like today.

In practice, I've always found that the people with modern agendas don't last, because there's so much other stuff to talk about besides their pet subject, that they can't spend enough time promoting their agenda and get bored. Or they get too upset and can't control themselves well enough to stay in period and look like farbs and get tossed for that. It just isn't a problem.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Federal Bummer]

Re: Portable First Persson- Rethinking the model

What a great discussion. All too little has been formally discussed on this topic as it relates to progressives. (I personally like and use the term "progressive" because I feel it implies we are, at least, attempting to get "progressively better" at all aspects of our end of the hobby. IMHO, I feel the only ones who have the right to call themselves "hardcores" or "authentics". I know others feel this way from what I have heard and read.)

Stealing my thought,how dare you, Johnny :wink_smil

By the way, your uniform at Outpost was spot on to that picture. When I first saw you, I did a double take and thought, "I'll be d*****, someone pulled it off."

I'll be breif as my thought have been said before by others

I'm not personally a big fan of taking on accutal names, because I think there is no way to fully become that person, but we can research these people, thier history and adapt a down to earth (not going over board) and accurate impression of a man in that regiment or man or woman civilian.

Old census data, and old newspapers from micro film provide a world of knowledge to base a persona. The imformation is out there, it is just up what an event organizer wants to spoon feed you in order to fill their ideas for the event and/or how deep you want to go on your own. To quote Capt Plant "The power is yours!"

[ElizabethClark]

Re: Portable First Persson- Rethinking the model

Sustained first-person correspondance is a lot harder than in-person interaction, in my opinion.

I'll have to ditto Hank's comments on making it easy. It really does work.

A lot of us have trouble with silence. Just being STILL is hard work! The urge to fill silence with *any* conversation at all, just to fill the void, is a challenging urge to overcome, but it can be done. For instance, if I'm doing dishes in a historic house, I don't *need* to chat with anyone, about anything. I can create a period moment for myself and others by just humming or singing some of my favorite mid-century songs, or, I can just wash in silence, and think about the others who've done this same thing daily in the past. But, I have to overcome my urge to fill silence with *something* for that to work!

Another challenge to overcome, either in interpretive situations or in immersion interaction situations, is "theatricality". Exaggerated reactions aren't the goal--we're not trying to be "read" by the back row of the peanut gallery. We're up close and usually personal. Over-acting just isn't needed.

Where "theater" training can come in handy for interpretive situations is here: Voice Control, pacing, breath control, posture... the physical realities of projecting the human voice through a crowd (large or small) and communicating clearly over the susurrus.

Otherwise, I find that getting into the character mind is really just digging deep into childhood, for some serious "let's pretend" time. Watch children sometime--they really take playing pretend seriously, but they don't "over-act" the parts they give themselves most of the time (or, maybe, mine are just weird?) They figure out "who" they are, and act/react appropriately for that character.

Another challenge is one others have mentioned: being willing to accept that the character a fellow hobbyist presents at an event *is not real life*, and may not have any bearing at all on their real-life personality.

I'm not an "outside girl." I don't camp in real life. I don't spend hours outside voluntarily. Were I to translate my actual personality to the 1860s, for instance, I'd be the wife who told her husband to head West and establish the homestead, and write her to come out when the transcontinental rail was finished, and she could sleep in hotels the whole way out. However, for event purposes, I might willingly take on a persona of a very eager emigrant, anxious to get across the plains, loving every second of the trek, and looking forward to living in a rough hut while we get crops in and build the bigger house. No one should anticipate that my event enthusiasm translates to a desire to do that in real life.

That's a very mild example, but it translates to both positive and negative historical topics. With the research background, I'd be comfortable arguing for or against abolition, for or against women's suffrage, for or against gambling or prostitution... it's nothing to do with my modern beliefs at all, but some folks would have a hard time understanding that Event Persona and Real Life do not necessarily coordinate at all.

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Portable First Persson- Rethinking the model

By the way, your dress at Outpost was spot on to that picture. When I first saw you, I did a double take and thought, "I'll be d*****, someone pulled it off."

You heard it here, folks! Johnny Lloyd wore a dress to Outpost!!! :tounge_sm
Sorry, couldn't resist - Mods, do what you must ;-)

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Portable First Persson- Rethinking the model

Evil... pure evil comment above, sir... LOL :D

Yeah, I tried to look like the original image provided. I thought it might be fun. Maybe strange, but I wanted to look as regimented as possible for the 89th Ill. The picture was provided, so I conformed to the uniform rules as well as I could for Outpost. I borrowed a 1861 Springfield (I have a 1853 Enfield) and a frock coat (I have a Federal sack coat) along with a more-correct hunting horn for a slouch hat I have with that darn ostrich plume. :p I figured since it was supposed to be OCT 1862, the Federals would look more "early war", but not quite brand-spankin' new.

Question is, did the uniform in the image get issued to C Company, 89th Ill since the original image is from a member of I Company, 89th Ill.? Oh well, guess we might not know for sure- I searched far and wide for this answer and found nothing but official uniform regulations for the regular Army... Anyone from Illinois can chime-in here?

For the record, I was a bagpiper at Citadel and wore a kilt, but that is the closest thing to a skirt I have EVER worn... that's not even technically close by its nature or since it is used by men...

I have been to Scotland this past March, and laddie:
"People have been KILT calling them SKIRTS, anyway..." :p

BUT WE DIGRESS on this thread... back to the subject of "First Person"


Good stuff -Johnny

[Rev]

Re: Portable First Persson- Rethinking the model

Off topic:

For the record, I was a bagpiper at Citadel and wore a kilt, but that is the closest thing to a skirt I have EVER worn...

As one of deep Scottish roots I resent the fact that kilt and skirt are being used in the same sentence! ;)

[Charles Heath]

Re: Looking Ahead to Improvement

Kevin,

Part of the fuzz factor with a question like this is a good number of people haven't been to events with:

• The issuance of a background information CD to registrants so they not only have information for the event, but a "keeper" for later reference
• Listservers, at least dating back to the mid-to-late 1990s as part on an event, and in some cases multiple listservers for different layers
• Publication of the normal 5,000 word essay that typically finds its way into the hobby press at some point
• Websites heavy with information rather than graphics overkill
• Participant packets ranging from carbons, to mimeo to today's wonderful desktop publishing capabilities
• And everything in between, to include extensive reading lists

You can see some of this in Gribble's first person thread. More to the point, for the most part, the "golden age" of pre-event information has waned more than just a tad in recent years. Some of this can be pinpointed to a transition in organizers, too.

In any event, the real challenge is to get participants and prospective participants to actually read the material beforehand. Nothing illustrates this more than an overheard conversation in the Payne's Farm parking area where a fellow exclaimed, "Gee, I didn't know there really was a battle here." Yes, this was post-event.

[SCTiger]

Re: Portable First Persson- Rethinking the model

Alright, heave to on the bagpiper chat. What is this Authentic Scotsman forum. Anyhow to put things back on track, I wanted to condense and re-focus. If you can't create an effective character amongst willing reenactors, then why do some people believe it's easier to make a presentation to the public at a LH site?

If we can hone the art amongst ourselves, then the presentations and displays ought to be easier. I am not addressing Mainstream events either and Mr. Trent made a good point about how difficult it is to maintain a period character amongst the non-practicing. Like sticking to period food around a cornucopia of State fair food.

Funny story, I had a mainstream reenactor relate to me how he stayed in "first person" for an entire event, and when he came out, (like a trance I guess) he was emotionally drained and crying. The funny part, he didn't tell anyone about his project and they all thought he was a jerk all weekend, secondly people started to avoid him. He was also staying in this angry, "I was burned out by Sherman troops" mode even among the spectators. So he was really scaring the people in the small town that this event was near.

Alright so I was addressing, Ebufu events, semi and full immersion, military and civilian groups in the field. Developing a "frame work" character that you can tweak for every other event. Advantages to using your own name, a fictional one or that of some haint. Practicing the character amongst the like minded. Getting away from your modern personality and internet life. The whole thread is wonderful and I appreciate everyone's comments, but lets stick to how to practice our characters in the field or garrison environment. This includes civilians of course! I would eventually like to see a full immersion event, where the chat is dynamic and everyone has a tall tale or story to tell and you don't have to keep reintroducing yourself. When we reach that point, then we are really reenacting.

BTW I don't think Gribble is a period name, but I could be wrong.