Looking Ahead to Improvement

[NoahBriggs]

Re: Portable First Persson- Rethinking the model

I would eventually like to see a full immersion event, where the chat is dynamic and everyone has a tall tale or story to tell and you don't have to keep reintroducing yourself. When we reach that point, then we are really reenacting.

Easy. You can fall in with (as examples, but not limited to) the Trents or Liz Clark or myself, or any other list of characters who do this, watch, paticipate and learn. It's often difficult to tell if I am in first person unless you notice the modern references are absent, and a couple of historic references drop into the conversation.

[toccoa42]

Re: Portable First Persson- Rethinking the model

Alright so I was addressing, Ebufu events, semi and full immersion, military and civilian groups in the field. Developing a "frame work" character that you can tweak for every other event.

If I may draw upon experience from another time period -- WWII, specifically American. I am the platoon sergeant of 1st platoon, in which there are three squads of 12; in my company, we have two full platoons plus the HQ element. What we do at events -- we don't have true "24 hour" events where everyone stays at post in the field, but there are tacticals that last Friday early afternoon - Saturday late afternoon, with everyone returning to camp Friday evening after the night tactical.

We manage to stay "in period" -- a bit easier to do, since the WWII years were not all that long ago relative to Civil War, and behaviours are therefore more easily assumed -- by having the command element STAY in character all the time. The troops just tend to follow. We have inspections, drills, roll calls, formations, details, policings, ceremonies, bivouacs, work parties, messes -- the gamut, all coordinated and initiated by HQ. By maintaining a military atmosphere all the time, it's much easier for the entire company to stay focused and in period all the time. That doesn't mean we don't lapse, for we do frequently. But we are able to pull ourselves back into focus with the efforts of the HQ element, and by self-policing, fairly easily, when the proper period atmosphere is maintained.

[Rob Weaver]

Re: Portable First Persson- Rethinking the model

I also find it much easier to talk about things you've actually done or do, and use a period flair than to try to talk about a supposed past which exists only in your head. Bit of a method acting technique, I suspect. For instance: a hunting story is a hunting story. Dressed in period language rather than modern, you can tell about the buck you missed. Same with fishing stories. Work stories are a little harder, since the middle-class employment most of us know was rarer then, and completely changed. But if you insist on a rural character, what you did at work can be turned into "when I was in town," pretty convincingly. In the novel "Centennial," one of Mitchner's cowboys pins the tallest tales he tells on a friend named "O D Cleaver." A fine literary technique we could easily adopt.

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Portable First Persson- Rethinking the model

Rob-

You bring to mind a good point here... I feel as far as first-person characters go, the "country hilbilly" gets way overplayed, although most people lived on farms or in small villages/towns during the period. What of the common, middle-class city dweller? What was his life like compared to the "country-boy" in America?

I do like my impression to be one from the city rather than the countryside (both North and South) and there CAN, at times, be a dearth of research knowledge as to specifics of job duties and how they relate to a particular area the character was from. (For example, a clerk's job at a cotton warehouse on the docks in Charleston, SC vs. a clerk's job in New York City at a US Government contractor's warehousing office. Same job- way different areas... How did that affect the workers in those situations?)

I attribute this to the average worker, even in the cities, didn't bother to record his daily duties/life and other interractions within the cities in America during the 1860s. Also, I think records get destroyed/thrown away more easily in cities where there is constant and rapid change as compared to some old house in the countryside that has remained relatively undisturbed in 140+years. What gems of first-person research you'll find in attics there... ;)

-Johnny

PS- Mr. Deese- Highly addictive thread conversation- love it, thanks

[ElizabethClark]

Re: Portable First Persson- Rethinking the model

Ah, but a clerk in any shipping establishment or office *isn't* middle class, in my opinion--he's working class. He directly trades his labor for pay from his employer. His ultimate employer may be upper working class, or lower middle class, but he, himself, is not there yet. The vast majority of the population, whether rural or urban, seems to fall into a working class strata (though there are class levels within "working class").

Being urban working class doesn't preclude knowledge of things outside the city. After all, a great many urban men went to the gold fields before, during, and after the war years; a great many emigrated to "open the west"--some staying, some returning east. Newspapers like the Brooklyn Eagle had regular columns of news from California, Oregon, etc, detailing exploits and politics and crime, and all of that information is fodder for that wide-ranging background in mid-century society.

[RJSamp]

Re: For Bales, For Bales

[QUOTE=Charles Heath;80541]Not in the modern small square bale in the 45-65 lbs. range, but they did have hay presses and bales of hay were shipped by rail. Take a look at the famous image of such under canvas during the Petersburg campaign. It's posted here every few months, and the fodder is the right of the barrels of onions. Incidently, the rather large diameter (about the diameter of a pencil) soft iron wire on these bales is sometimes found as a bail on relic cans and dippers. The closest modern type bale is the large square bale (actually rectangular) that weighs about 500 lbs. These seem to be making a comeback.

Making hay stacks and foraging for hay has been done before. Unfortunately, like filling out paperwork for forage and grain, this activity isn't consistent. QUOTE]

I understand what's authentic for this time period......we need improvement in this area to be more period authentic. As you state, "this activity isn't consistent". And I'm not harping on the lying fallow corn fields that weren't planted 'checked'.

Unfortunately no rail shipments for this specific event, no canvas depot, we weren't near Petersubrg.... middle Tennessee......Late Fall 1862 to early Winter 1863..... If you can document it, I'll buy it......you've got the photo of the CSA camp.... not period correct, PERIOD. We can and should improve upon this.

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Portable First Persson- Rethinking the model

"But madam... are you of such social-progressive leanings?!?! Nothing good can come of that but mob rule and disorderly conduct between the various strata of our American society... Next thing you know everyone thinks he has the right to comment about society's problems. Confusion and chaos will set-in if we let those that are uninitiated participate in politics- surely you must know this. "

Good stuff above, Mrs. Clark... LOL

Definitely our modern idea of "middle class" was different than the 1860s idea. There were (and always still are to a point) various levels of chattel/lower/middle/upper class and each of those classes had their fair share of "dabbling" in the other's classes worlds. (For example: Slave served extremely rich planters... lower class Irish immigrant works for small businessman of the middle class... rich man goes "lower class" following his dream of gold in California to lose his whole fortune... lower class German immigrant that barely speaks English makes a small fortune selling his beer in the midwest and becomes middle/upper class due to affluence- hmmm, sound familiar?).

You're quite right. Please temper what I said above your comment with the corollary you added below it. If I was not succinct in conveying this, please note the correction. Always are exceptions to the general rule...

Thanks! -Johnny

[RJSamp]

Re: Looking Ahead to Improvement

We need improvement in our fighting:

movement by battalion rather than companies
commands delivered through the chain of command (don't want a Field Grade Officer giving order's to the 7th comrades at arms 'cell' on the skirmish line).

keep distances farther apart or take MASSIVE casualties if they aren't

More walking wounded.....more shelter half and blanket stretchers (don't need any poles....just 4+ willing Men (not drummer boys), grab and go.

more lying down and firing whilst lying down or take MASSIVE casualties if you are not..if you are on the skirmish line and standing in one spot something is wrong...become one with Mother Earth.

mounted cavalry within 300 yards of an infantry firing line where neither side is moving.....cavalry better start taking hits very quickly.

Mounted cavalry within LOF of an infantry unit.....start moving out of LOF immediately...you don't want to dismount under fire, and when you are stationary you are a BIG target. There's a reason that Gamble's troopers fought for 6+ hours against Infantry on July 1st 1863 Herr's Ridge and had less than 200 casualties.....they got off of their horses whilst out of LOS/LOF and fought the infantry whilst dismounted. Not Mounted carbine fire. dismounted.

Mounted Cavalry in closed terrain means you will incur a lot of casualties.....don't recon the brush mounted unless you want to get killed quickly....dismount and low crouch/slither in.....

Where is that command "FIRE AT WILL" found in the vernacular or manuals? I've read "Load. Load at Will"

In the field and moving......you read of one volley and then fire by file (which in reality meant fire on your own crook).....too many crisp volley fires in reenacting. These men became scared, they fired as if on auto pilot, as if their life depended on it....

Of all the skirmishes that occurred during the ACW....how many were before dawn during October 1862 - March 1863? If the answer is not many, I think I know the answer why.....Distances become too close, the men's fire discipline / accuracy goes to he[[ in a hand basket, Vast expenditures of ammunition for little gain/casualties, and it tires you out for the rest of the day when you could actually see a target.... From a reenacting standpoint, I don't think it's Plain, Everyday, Common.....they avoided night fighting especially early on....and tried not to march at night where they might bump into an ambush.

When we talk about improving our 'skills' this is one area where we could TRAIN and improve our 'acting' skills immensely.

The alternative of doing Living Histories only, for me personally, is not an acceptable alternative.

[Kevin O'Beirne]

Re: Looking Ahead to Improvement

E-gads, RJ and I are in agreement! :)

[Kevin O'Beirne]

Re: Looking Ahead to Improvement

More to the point, for the most part, the "golden age" of pre-event information has waned more than just a tad in recent years. Some of this can be pinpointed to a transition in organizers, too.

I guess it's always a matter of who the organizer is--after all, historical research, evaluation, and presentation of results doesn't happen on its own; someone has to DO IT.

Many events about four to seven years ago were quite a bit heavier on historical documentation than I'm seeing more recently. As a couple examples, the Rowdy Pards' battalion-sized 2002 Harrison's Landing LH in Virginia, portraying the 83rd Pennsylvania in the aftermath of the Seven Days, included some of the event committee visiting the National Archives specifically to reseach the regiment's uniforms (via quartermaster records), command structure (the unit was sorely depleted and several companies were commanded by sergeants, as it turned out and as it was portrayed), and other "stuff". I imagine that several aspects of that event would have been very different had someone not taken the initiative to make the trip and do the research, and then implement it.

At the Antietam 2003 Preservation March, our battalion portrayed four different regiments during the weekend. More than 18 months in advance, four teams were selected/volunteered/cajoled into research each portrayal and present the results for EACH portrayal in a comprehensive essay--most of these were 5,000 words or more long, and at least one of them (Rob Willis's on the 51st Pennsylvania) was later published in "Military Heritage" magazine. These essays were posted on the event website and distributed directly to participants well in advance of the event.

Within our company for the Burkittsville 2001 event, one fellow (Don Williams) wrote a 5,000-word essay (also later published in "Military Heritage" magazine) and another (Steve Tyler) wrote up a summary of 1860 census data for the area from whence our company portrayal hailed to assist the company with first-person impressions.

"Winter 1864" has a large amount of historical documentation on the event website--from two, 10,000-word essays by two of the organizers (Dennis Schank and Scott Schotz) on the history the regiment portrayed from its founding through the end of the winter of 1864--including the Mine Run cmapaign--to the first 100 or so pages of the hard-to-find regimental history, to copies of period manuals and regs and reenactor write-ups of them to help participants understand the "how-to" of camp police Guard and rendering honors, and other stuff.

These are some that I'm familiar with, and are certainly not rare cases, but one doesn't see that type of documentation provided as much lately.

In any event, the real challenge is to get participants and prospective participants to actually read the material beforehand. Nothing illustrates this more than an overheard conversation in the Payne's Farm parking area where a fellow exclaimed, "Gee, I didn't know there really was a battle here." Yes, this was post-event.

Of course, getting men to read it is always a challenge. I'm of the opinion that the greater the effort the organizers go to make the information easier to digest, the greater the chance that the men will read and understand it. I'm not naive enough to think that everyone, or much more than half, ever read the info no matter how well it's presented, but the chance of getting it into a man's brain is increased when info that has been evaluated and well-presented is put right into his hands, instead of telling him, "You do all your own research if you want to know about this portrayal."

As for Payne's Farm, I could have sworn I told the Federal battalion numerous times pre-event, in addition to writing it on the event website, that we'd be on the very ground where the units portrayed struggled in 1863. That some folks didn't realize is until Sunday speaks volumes. I'm glad that Chris Piering came over to me while the Federal battalion had 20 spare minutes on Sunday morning and said, "Y'know, I'm not sure if everyone here understands that we are literally on the original ground..." and after I addressed the battalion about it for five or ten minutes, I saw the light finally come on in some eyes.

You can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink. That said, there are some out there who will read the info provided, and it's those guys that need the info that the organizesr should be researching anyway.

[Rob Weaver]

Re: Portable First Persson- Rethinking the model

Absolutely - I was using Middle Class in more of the modern than period sense. The American author William Dean Howells was alive and writing at the time of the Civil War, although the publication of his novels is post-war. I haven't read him in 25 years, having found his approach to realism to be insufferably dull. His concept was to record life as drama, with all the little details piling up to make effect. As I recall, one of his caharacters was a German Civil War veteran with only one arm. I remember his recording of dialogue to be particularly realistic, especially against the dialogue of other 19th century authors. I was not doing Civil War at the time I studied Howells, but I was struck by the wealth of detail he incorporated in his writing. Would he be a helpful writer to read, not from the standpoint of gleaning facts, but impressions and attitudes, much the way I would recommend reading Twain? (BTW - I'm pretty sure I found him dull because I was 21 and liked Hemingway way too much.)

[SamuelCathey]

Re: Portable First Persson- Rethinking the model

Consider keeping as close to your modern self as possible to enhance the comfort level of first person. Much conversation is naturally first person. For example all things related to camp set up, drill, food preparation etc. That is easy first person because no one has to work at it. Next if you simply eliminate modern history, politics, and re-enacting related stuff you are well on your way to staying in first person. Everyone out there loves history, just talking about pre Civil War events can fill much time. Many modern relationships fit just fine into first person also so it never hurts to talk about wives, family etc. Finally, just being quiet is fine also. These guys spent a lot of time together and would have been very comfortable being quiet around each other.
So my addition for the sake of argument expansion is not to shun your modern self when out in the woods. If a modern song pops into my head when on picket duty I just accept the fact that although the form of music is wrong, the concept of having popular music burst into the brain at any moment is a very period experience.

[SamuelCathey]

Re: Looking Ahead to Improvement

drill and cooking! There are lots of easily accessed memoirs that go into an incredible level of detail in terms of mess equipment, recipes used, and kinds of fires built. Living all weekend on properly prepared issue foods is a great way to delve into the past.
Many manual details for manual of arms etc. are still being ignored by many, and many more battalion exercises could be attempted. If the whole campaigner movement focussed on drill, cooking, and critical examination of the goods produced by so called authentic vendors, and less on trying to simulate bloody, horrible combat I think we would all be amazed at the level of excellence that could be achieved. Sam Cathey

[Dreamer42]

Re: Looking Ahead to Improvement

One of the major "progressive" issues I am working on is learning the particulars about specific units. I have been checking out a few decent books to buy for just this, but even two of them have incorrect information about what to me are basic facts (mislabeling weapons or locations in certain photos). So my skepticism increases - if the caption is wrong, what else is wrong?
The other side of the coin...I have witnessed too many who do not know how to properly cook over a bed of coals, in which order to cook said items so they are ready to eat at the same time, or how to prepare the food, much less cook it. At Franklin '04 many put their slab of saltbork on the fry pan without slicing it or cutting into chuncks - burn, baby burn.
One thing I found satisfying at BGR was the skill with which my fellows could put together some tasty dishes with just issued rations. I believe the reason so many accomplish their kit and accountrements, yet neglect their kitchen skills, is that they never force themselves to (1) learn from their pards and (2) loose the modern snacks and cook with issued rations. Now that the weather is getting cooler, I plan to cook over a wood fire in my backyard to practice with combining foods - rice, hardtack, saltpork, peas, beans, etc.
The way I see it, if the thing men do best is eat, why do we do such a poor job at it in uniform? The boys of '61 became experts at this over time, and so should we.

- Jay Reid
Dreamer42

[Kevin O'Beirne]

Re: Looking Ahead to Improvement

drill and cooking! There are lots of easily accessed memoirs that go into an incredible level of detail in terms of mess equipment, recipes used, and kinds of fires built. Living all weekend on properly prepared issue foods is a great way to delve into the past.

I won't argue that "campaigner" drill can and should improve, and that as a group we need to take a closer look at the wares of the "good" repro vendors with a critical eye (the years of "designer repros" should come to an end, as I see it). That said, I'm not sure I am understanding the remarks above about the need for more and better cooking. I've seen a large variety of campaigner cuisine at events for many years and folks pushing the envelope based on what they've read. It's an important element of a reenacting experience to be sure, but, personally, I don't think I'd say that grub is an area that needs significant improvement. Yes, there's room to improve it, but at most of the events I attend it's not bad compared to what I read about in history books.