Loyalist

[Johan Steele]

Re: Loyalist

Mr Schmidt is correct on all accounts, safety HAS got to be paramount for what we do, anything less is simply criminally stupid.

Using a nonproofed barrel? Might as well use a piece of electrical conduit... when that nonproofed barrel ruptures and seriously hurts or God forbid kills the man in line next to you...

Would anyone on this board sanction lack of safety standards? Of coarse not and non proofed barells lack safety standards of even the most rudimentry type.

I'm reminded of a cannon made out of a sewer pipe... it isn't safe and no one in their right mind wants to be anywhere near it. As far as I know it isn't allowed at any even vaguely legitimate events, and neither should nonproofed barrels.

[benjaminmcgee]

Re: Loyalist

hey guys,

I was thinking about purchasing an indian made lorenz but now I'm a little sketchy. Back to hunting for an original again.

Benjamin McGee

[tmdreb]

Re: Loyalist

hey guys,

I was thinking about purchasing an indian made lorenz but now I'm a little sketchy. Back to hunting for an original again.

Benjamin McGee

What makes an original any safer? One of these blew up a few years ago, taking away a couple fingers from the shooter.

Just curious, I know that competitive shooters use barrels made here in the US by various manufacturers. Since there is no government standard or proof houses here, what assurance of safety does the buyer have? I am not casting aspersions in any way, I'm just asking.

6

[J.H.Berger]

Re: Loyalist

Comrades,
I do not know how it is in the US but in Germany if you import a gun, in this case muzzle loader which has not underwent proof testing with accepted standard proof marks you simply have to ship this gun to a proof house where it is tested and stamped with a proof mark if it stands that test.
So if any barrel stands that test whether India or Italian or China made you can assume it to be as safe as any other proof marked barrel.
If you have an India made weapon and feel uncomfortable about its safety, ask a gunsmith to test it, if that is the way it is done in the US.

[trippcor]

Re: Loyalist

Folks,
First, I want to reiterate it was not a Loyalist Arms weapon that burst. At least from what I have been able to find out when looking into this incident. Any way I took the proofing question directly to Loyalist so they could respond directly. They said:

We send loading data and proofing data with each musket, pistol, etc. via email that we sell. They will handle a proof firing, although we cannot proof them all, due to time restrictions and lack of close facilities. None of the major manufacturers in Italy or elsewhere proof each and every musket or pistol. They only proof 2 or 3 barrels out of each production run of up to 200 barrels. This applies to all modern rifles as well from every manufacturer worldwide. Once the manufacturers proof the barrels, they throw them away. When you purchase a new firearm from whomever, it is indeed new. It has never been fired nor proofed.!!!

People assume that since there is a proof mark stamped on the barrel,(of any gun), it must have been proofed. This is false. Proofing each gun was done in the old days when guns were made by the individual makers, but not in the modern mass produced factories of today. There are some custom builders that will proof a gun when they have completed it, but we are talking about factories cranking out thousands per year.

Our barrels are drilled, however, we always advise our customers to proof their own muskets for their own safety,(no matter who the manufacturer is). If you look thru a Dixie Gunworks catalog, you will see the same advise, and we believe Mr.Turner Kirkland, (former president of Dixie Gun works, God rest his soul), was absolutely right. This is just simple common sense. Everyone should proof their guns. I have heard of some companies selling undrilled guns, I cannot comment on these products at all for safety or quality.

We send proofing & loading data, assuming the customer will fire the musket with a ball.
If you are simply firing blanks, then you are just burning up powder and not generating any pressure. If you are firing a ball, then its another story. Our muskets are manufactured to fire live rounds,(with ball), if necessary. These are real guns and not toys.

Of course, if loaded improperly, any muzzle loader will blow up,(which happened recently).
The ball should sit snugly on the powder charge with no space between them.

We also mention proofing our guns so that the customer will know that ours were not just made to fire blanks, or worse still, not meant to fire at all, and unfortunately, there are some guns out there that are not safe to fire. Buyer beware !!!

There are a couple dealers out there selling products that look almost identical as ours, but they are made by totally different manufacturers.

We recommend proofing at approx. double regular load plus 10% . Some people believe a 300% proof is preferred, however, double + 10% is sufficient to proof the barrel without causing any hidden damage to it. Of course, if you were to properly proof a barrel and damage occurred, we would certainly ask you to return it for a refund; not that this would happen.

Your Servant,
Blair
LAR LTD

So there it is from the horses mouth. Loyalist does indeed make their guns so that they can live fire and include instructions for proofing the weapon. I do not know if their claims about how other manufactures handle proofing are true or not. Maybe someone with more experience with that can respond to that.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Loyalist

The Italian manufacturers are all required by law to submit every barrel for black powder proof testing at the national proof house in Gardonne, Italy. D. Pedersoli, Uberti, Pietta, Armi Chiappa and Euroarms are all unaware of any exceptions to the requirement that all barrels be proofed.

My experiences with Blair Higgins of Loyalist Arms are such that as with other matters, I would recommend that you take his statements on the barrel proofing practices of the Italian black powder industry with a grain of salt. This much can be said, LA's imported barrels are not subject to any proofing requirements. I doubt seriously if a shade tree operation like Loyalist Arms has access to any modern barrel proofing facilities. I would interpret his comments on their "proof tests" as such...they test fire a few out the back door of their shed. This is not quite the same as barrel proofing and that much should be understood.

Likewise, the India/Pakistan muskets are mostly of overall compromised quality. Their main selling point is lower cost, not greater historical feature accuracy or better construction and materials. It is difficult to make any hard and fast statements about their barrels due to variability. As an example, consider the bayonets they produce over in India. They might fit your barrel fine, or they might not. Impossible to say even within the same lot because the tolerances are so loose that there is inevitable variation in socket diameter. The steel is low carbon "mild" steel, which is easier to work with. That is why they bend like a pipe cleaner. The center for the India gunmaking is in and around Udiapur. You would voluntarily shoot a barrel made of the same steel used in the bayonets made by these same guys?

I am with the other wisemen Curt Heinrich Schmidt + Johan Steele on this one. Why take the chance?

[Johan Steele]

Re: Loyalist

Having grown up in a gunshop I can assure any firearm made in the US by a reputable manufacturer is proofed; I know the Sharps out of Big Timber are as are the Larry Romano rifles and I will wager my watch those out of Lodgewood are as well. The same is true for modern military firearms in France, Switzerland, Germany, Poland, Russia and even China. The comment from Loyalist about barrels not being proofed is incorrect... and frankly leads me to question if I EVER want to buy anything from them.

I'm reminded of a regretable event in a mispent youth involving a homemade spud gun, a can of spam and 120 grains FFG... the shed was never the same.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Loyalist

Hallo!

The Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des Armes à Feu Portatives (CIP) governs arms and ammunition testing and standards for member countries Austria, Belgium, Chile, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Hungary, Italy, Russia, Slovenia, Spain, and the United Kingdom.

The U.S. is not a member country, but has the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (SAAMI). CIP and SAAMI are similar, but have differences in testing procedures and chambering and cartridge "issues" at times.

For anyone interested, please feel free to "read up" on either and the firearm and ammunition industries.

After reading the Loyalist Arms "defense," rather than reply at length I will use just one word... Sigh.

Others' mileage, and personal desire to use these Indian/Pakistani products, will vary...

Curt

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Loyalist

I typed something up and lost my internet connection. The thrust of it was about what the Forum Mod with the most common sense and resident firearms expert Curt Heinrich Schmidt wrote, the US does not have a proof house and SAAMI does not provide these services on imported black powder muskets. The logical arguments whether supported by whatever evidence there is will not discourage those in search of a bargain, and the human mind is happy to be deceived.

A good discussion. I do wish we were discussing how to make the various reproductions we have better instead of how low the bar can go on even poorer quality imports and still pass muster.

Edit: I reject that comment about the forum moderators. - PC

Reply to edit: Well let me say this instead, Curt Heinrich Schmidt has the rare combination of first hand experience, clear thinking, knowledge and most of all good judgment. "Common sense" is probably selling him short given what he provides to the ACW community. -CLB

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Loyalist

This has been quite an informative thread. For me, the take away is this:
1) The interest in LA and other Indian/Paki producers is primarily low cost and the production of arms not currently made by the Italian makers.
2) Historical accuracy of Indian/Paki arms is sorely lacking. Given that Italian arms are not up-to-snuff in this department, a move to Indian/Paki arms is a move in the wrong direction (aka Farbism, IMHO... ain't there a rule abou that?)
3) Indian/Paki arms are not proofed and safety concerns are legitimate. By contrast, Italian arms are proofed and have a production record that is decades old. So, don't be offended if you have one of these and I move to a non-adjacent position in the line.

It is not my intent to be unkind, but I think the information on this and other threads all points in the same direction: Unsafe and not historically accurate. Am I out to lunch?

[ACo.]

Re: Loyalist

This has been quite an informative thread. For me, the take away is this:
1) The interest in LA and other Indian/Paki producers is primarily low cost and the production of arms not currently made by the Italian makers.
2) Historical accuracy of Indian/Paki arms is sorely lacking. Given that Italian arms are not up-to-snuff in this department, a move to Indian/Paki arms is a move in the wrong direction (aka Farbism, IMHO... ain't there a rule abou that?)
3) Indian/Paki arms are not proofed and safety concerns are legitimate. By contrast, Italian arms are proofed and have a production record that is decades old. So, don't be offended if you have one of these and I move to a non-adjacent position in the line.

It is not my intent to be unkind, but I think the information on this and other threads all points in the same direction: Unsafe and not historically accurate. Am I out to lunch?

John, a good and thoughtful post. I do have to say that I agree with Herr Schmidt's thoughts. And let me say this: Loyalist was quoted making some troubling statements in an earlier loooooong discussion about their Lorenz effort and the disinformation they are putting out now pretty much says to me that they should be avoided when it comes to firearms. Stage props (sorry, I include reenacting, blank firing only guns in this) and wall hangers are one thing, guns being used for live fire with ball are something else. Dismissing the proofing of Italian guns is for those that want to believe in their product (the price IS attractive) but the Italian proofing practice goes back hundreds of years and has stood the test of time.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Loyalist

Hallo!

I believe this thread has already run its informative value and in the absence of further information, is being closed.

Curt