Ramming

[Poor Private]

Ramming? I thought ramming was a big no-no. Your not supposed to pull your ramrod at any event, except to clean your piece. So what difference would cotton ball make?
P.S. you now have an instant ear plug/noise suppressor.

[HOG.EYE.MAN]

Re: Ammunition

Ramming? I thought ramming was a big no-no. Your not supposed to pull your ramrod at any event, except to clean your piece. So what difference would cotton ball make?
P.S. you now have an instant ear plug/noise suppressor.

What happens when you get the command.... "Load in 9 times"? What do you do when it comes time to "ram cartridge"? Do you skip that step?

Put it this way, many authentic living history events require cartridge ramming as part of the experience in drill, or demonstrations. In some cases, I've seen it done in battle situations as well.

[IowaYank]

Re: Ammunition

Ramming? I thought ramming was a big no-no. Your not supposed to pull your ramrod at any event, except to clean your piece. So what difference would cotton ball make?
P.S. you now have an instant ear plug/noise suppressor.

Depends on the type of event you are going to. Mainstream events, no you will not see ramming. I would be willing to bet that almost every event listed on the Tier 1 list allow and use ramming. In my opinion if you can't remember to take your own rammer out of the barrel and replace it you have bigger things to worry about than that. Taking the rammer out and replacing it in the channel is a major step in loading.

[ley74]

Re: Ammunition

Wow! Rich Mountain revisited. Every event (battle or living history) I have attended since 2005 required ramming. If you are not, it may be that you are still attending the wrong events.

Having attended a few rolling parties (one of live rounds) I would have no problem at the Tier I events.

[BrianHicks]

Re: Ammunition

Ramming? I thought ramming was a big no-no. Your not supposed to pull your ramrod at any event, except to clean your piece. So what difference would cotton ball make?
P.S. you now have an instant ear plug/noise suppressor.

Really?!?!

I'm not sure what events you've been enjoying, but we have been ramming cartridges for quite some time at most every event I've been too in the past few years.

Which events you may ask?

Well... everything from BGR, to this weekends Outpost III, and back back to the 'Wood Gathering Detail', 'A Routine Patrol' , Picketts Mill, 'Prelude to Chickamauga' , Rich Mountain, etc....not to mention every National Battlefield LH we've done.

The myth of 'not using your rammer' is rather scarce at events on this end of the hobby in this region.

Ammunition issue is a great element, but as others have mentioned above... problematic. Having been on the MOOCOW Steerage Committee, and participated in two different iterations of rolling and packaging thousands of rounds, I will quickly state that doing such an issue in that manner... while well intentioned, and great for the men... is not much fun for those who actually make it happen.

And as other have stated... receiving in issue, rounds that are far inferior to what you personally packaged is a concern, as well as trying to get the same arsenal pack back to teh original man who brought it to th event.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Ammunition

What Mr. Ramone said.

On a related issue, check out http://richmountainimages.spaces.live.com/

Photos #193-196 provide excellent examples of why rammers are a bad idea. Even self-proclaimed c/p/h ers are not immune from reenactor ranges.

Nor are they immune from over-excitement. Fortunately there's no snap shot of the rounds fired over the limber chest shortly before the other pictures were taken.

I will not draw a rammer when some one else is down range and no one else should either.

[john duffer]

Re: Ammunition

I think the idea at Rich Mountain was rammers didn't matter since most of the men were going to die anyway without their knapsacks. :)

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Ammunition

That would only be true of the Federals... :)

[Charles Heath]

Re: Ammunition

I'm not sure what events you've been enjoying, but we have been ramming cartridges for quite some time at most every event I've been too in the past few years.

Ditto for the vasty majority of high quality events during the past ten years, at least. In any case, let's return to discussing issues with event ammunition supply and resupply.

[BrianHicks]

Re: Ammunition

What Mr. Ramone said.

On a related issue, check out http://richmountainimages.spaces.live.com/

Photos #193-196 provide excellent examples of why rammers are a bad idea. Even self-proclaimed c/p/h ers are not immune from reenactor ranges.

Nor are they immune from over-excitement. Fortunately there's no snap shot of the rounds fired over the limber chest shortly before the other pictures were taken.

I will not draw a rammer when some one else is down range and no one else should either.

Looks as though the men returned their rammers, as per the manual before firing in each of the pictures suggested above.

As for you're preference to not draw a rammer, that is certainly each individuals right. I've never seen any one being forced, coerced or otherwise influenced into using their rammer at an event. I have seen men who chose to to use them, while others around them felt confident in using them.

As to the firing over the limber... totally different issue regarding safety there. And with that... there is no lee-way for do it or don't do it... you simply don't do it unless you desire to risk secondary detonations of unknown quantities of powder!.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Ammunition

Brian, I agree entirely with your message. The photos show no ramrods flying back and forth, nor do they document any other atrocity.

But what would you say the range was? Twenty yards? Thirty? The scene reminds me a little of when I was nine, getting the NRA “Safe Hunter” badge with a .22 on a 50 foot range.

I think it shows that self-described campaigners can get excited and close the range as readily as mainstreamers. Often, of course, they’re the same person. Probably the best way to think about this is not to imagine yourself drawing the rammer, but someone like me. A nervous clerk. Twenty yards away from you.

Or maybe an excited kid, delighted to attend his first “campaign” event, whose mainstream unit would never dream of allowing him to draw a rammer on the field. I might elect to leave the rammer where it belongs, but he might not.

Bottom line, I’d hate to see everyone conclude that pushing the envelope on safety was the hallmark of authenticity. Not when there’s still so much paperwork to master. And no matter what the majority of “high quality” events have allowed. Some day this line of thinking will get someone hurt, and then it’s NPS rules for all of us.

And Charles, with all respect, I think this does track with the discussion of ammo. I’m sure the reason I’ve found some of the strange “bullets” I have in issued rounds has to do with folks wanting that nice solid pop when they ram paper. I mean, some of those cotton balls aren’t even cotton. There are great instructions in the CR event regs for making period blanks and if we could get everyone to use those it might be a different story.

[Charles Heath]

Re: Ammunition

Brian, I agree entirely with your message. The photos show no ramrods flying back and And Charles, with all respect, I think this does track with the discussion of ammo.

Nope. This is just another diversion in a series of diversions. Since this thread has wandered well off the path from the original intent, I'll add another branch to the trail and suggest a re-reading of the accounts of the fight around the Hart's horse barn. That may answer the question as to the distances, with or without dealing with the vegetation and road alignment changes that took place in nearly a century and a half. Yet another discussion about accurate ranges would be a great topic for another thread on the subject in another section of the forum. Frankly, this would have been a better place for a positive contribution as to the paperwork associated with ammuntion issues.

Insert the sound of crickets chirping here.

Back to simulated plumbus.....

Aside from uniformity, the general problem of quality given not matching quality received, mismatched weaponry, and coordinating containers, is the tiny little issue of ammunition box weight. Those jokers were heavy when filled with the real thing.

The last several times we issued rounds from ammunition boxes, one of the suggestions afterwards was to insert a block of lead and build a thin false bottom. This increases the weight, and decreases the capacity of the boxes. At first, the latter would seem to be a bad development; however, given the size of most reenactor battalions (and company size brigades at some events), an extra couple of ammunition boxes may not be a bad idea.

As Duffer mentioned, preparing an ammunition issue from scratch takes a monumental amount of time, and, as others have noted, receiving lesser quality cartridges from the turn-in-and-receive-back mode isn't satisfactory either. I'm assuming some aspects have changed since we last had a 1,000+ cartridge issue a decade ago, but these two factors appear to remain the same. To add to this, different events require (that may be too strong of a word) different ammunition, for example, properly rolled rounds are a no-go at NPS events. Sparky can add more to this than I can, but that was a surprise for many of us when he was circulating his draft ammunition article years ago.

On second thought, maybe you are right. The "can't use rammers" crowd sounds a heck of a lot like the "we'll die without our blankets" crowd.

[hendrickms24]

Re: Ammunition

On second thought, maybe you are right. The "can't use rammers" crowd sounds a heck of a lot like the "we'll die without our blankets" crowd.

I think it's quite telling that some people in this hobby think toughing it out and using rammers is a way to prove their manhood. I for one am not in the hobby to prove my manhood and think the use of rammer and other unhealthy practices are big safety issues. When I was in the "Real" United States Army, I saw all kinds of dangerous mistake done by trained personnel when fatigued set in. There is no reason to place anyone safety behind so call authenticity. If I wanted to experience every aspect of combat I would reenlist and go to Iraq.

Just my 2 cents,

[Brian Luscombe]

Re: Ammunition

We drew rammers and used them this past weekend at Outpost. We were very fatigued and very well led. There were no safety issues with rammers. At the end of the day, each individual must be comfortable with what they do, and ensure that safe distances are used, regardless of whether rammers are used or not.

[Eric Tipton]

Re: Ammunition

On a related issue, check out http://richmountainimages.spaces.live.com/. Photos #193-196 provide excellent examples of why rammers are a bad idea. Even self-proclaimed c/p/h ers are not immune from reenactor ranges.

This was a planned part of the scenario in which Doug Cooper's Company arrived late to the battle just as it was ending. I am quite familiar with that area of the field and it is further away than it looks. I took the picture and saw this personally. The range for the main portion of the battle was also measured and was beyond "ramrod range".

As I stated many times after the event, each part that was done was planned, ranges checked and we fired a ramrod as a demonstration at an Ohio event that summer and measured precisely 30 FEET and we planned accordingly.

I think some of us will just have to agree to disagree on this subject as we are reaching the same conclusion we did in July, 2006. ;)