Ramming

[DougCooper]

Re: Ammunition

This was a planned part of the scenario in which Doug Cooper's Company arrived late to the battle just as it was ending. I am quite familiar with that area of the field and it is further away than it looks. I took the picture and saw this personally. The range for the main portion of the battle was also measured and was beyond "ramrod range".

As I stated many times after the event, each part that was done was planned, ranges checked and we fired a ramrod as a demonstration at an Ohio event that summer and measured precisely 30 FEET and we planned accordingly.

I think some of us will just have to agree to disagree on this subject as we are reaching the same conclusion we did in July, 2006. ;)

Its a training and leadership thing. At Rich Mountain, we practiced for an hour with rammers and we were satisfied we had no cretins in the ranks - the kind that would for some reason take their hand off the rammer, somehow forgetting step 7. We never got anywhere near 30 feet at any time during the event.

Since then I cannot recall attending an event where we did NOT use rammers, and there have been no incidents of any kind.

Again, its a training and a leadership thing.

Outpost was the latest example - again, no problemo. Ammo reissue worked well too. I had to use all 24 teeth tearing the cartridges in one bundle I received but hey, a little contractor variation is OK :D

[RJSamp]

Re: Ammunition

As I stated many times after the event, each part that was done was planned, ranges checked and we fired a ramrod as a demonstration at an Ohio event that summer and measured precisely 30 FEET and we planned accordingly.

Eric, are you saying you deliberately fired a ramrod out of a musket and it travelled 30.00000 feet? Both Bill Watson and I have fired ramrods, independently of each other, and 30' is NOT the case.

[Charles Heath]

Re: Ammunition

Illustrating once again some fundamental differences....

Let's try to keep the mainstream rhetoric down to a dull roar, shall we? Thank you for your cooperation.

[hendrickms24]

Re: Ammunition

Illustrating once again some fundamental differences....

Let's try to keep the mainstream rhetoric down to a dull roar, shall we? Thank you for your cooperation.

Hello,

Can you please explain what was mainstream about RJSamp question or any other safety issue discussed on this thread? I just would like to know so if I add to this discussion what not to bring up or ask.

Thanks

[Charles Heath]

Re: Ammunition

If you have to ask....

[hendrickms24]

Re: Ammunition

If you have to ask....

I kind of figured this is the kind of response I get from you. I'm still amazed that your a Moderator on this forum since you cause more problems then anyone else that post here.

Can any other moderator answer my question?

I hope everybody has a Happy Thanksgiving,

[Charles Heath]

Re: Ammunition

I kind of figured this is the kind of response I get from you.

I'll take a few minutes to quote the answers given elsewhere in this very thread.

Since then I cannot recall attending an event where we did NOT use rammers, and there have been no incidents of any kind.

Doug is pointing out that unlike most farb, mainstream, and authenticist events, the use of rammmers has been an accepted practice in the campaigner, progressive, and hardcore world for a while. Doug and I don't see eye to eye on a lot of things, but I have to respect a fellow living in Idaho who manages to get to a number of quality events on a regular basis, and manages to be involved with battlefield preservation on a national level. While still involved with the N/SA (buy him books, send him to school, hey, we can only do so much you understand), over the past few decades, "Spudman" Doug has a fairly good perspective on what the FMA folks do and what the CPH folks do on a regular basis. Okay, well, most of the time we don't have to take the Spudman behind the woodshed. He is pointing out that using rammers, much like using bayonets is a common part of the CPH world.

Pretty much the only time I am not allowed to use a rammer is at mainstream events. I've been reenacting for 10 years now and I've never seen any problems with using a rammer.

Herb, the OCN, and soon to be a requestor of kitchen passes, seems to agree. Funny thing is, Herb tends to attend quality events on a regular basis, and has even entered into a 12-step program for carpe eventum addicts as of a few months ago. The Tunnel Hill-Resaca Jones is a terrible thing to shake.

As far as the rammer issue goes, well, it's been years for me at least since I've been to an event where I did not use my rammer.

James Miller, who has a Babe Ruth impression that is so damn realistic it is scary, reinforces this notion. James also added quite a bit to the original discussion portion of the thread, which was about ammunition issues (as in preparation, storage, request, issue, and receipt as opposed to problems with ammunition and ramming) until some folks decided to get their panties in a wad about rammers.

I'm not sure what events you've been enjoying, but we have been ramming cartridges for quite some time at most every event I've been too in the past few years.

You'll instantly recognize "Gunny" Hicks from the many events where he works his narrow ass off as the Sergeant Major, and his likeness on the cover of a recent issue of CWH. In his role at events, he has a pretty darn good bird's eye view of the "goens" on, and to add to this:

The myth of 'not using your rammer' is rather scarce at events on this end of the hobby in this region.

While some panties were twisted tightly about a week ago by a reference that most of the best events are not held east of the big scary mountains, this is a good time to point that out once again. The dance partners from the Great Lakes to the Gulf Coast bounded by the little mountains in the east, and the states bordered by the Mighty Muddy have had a good thing going on for a long time. If anything 2007 has ushered in a bright new era with the ONV, WIG, SCAR, ATM, and others working together. I hope to see this trend continue. Oh, darn, we were talking about rammers....

Every event (battle or living history) I have attended since 2005 required ramming. If you are not, it may be that you are still attending the wrong events.

Ley Watson of the world of green eyeshades and draconian rules involving window shutter color coordination, points out the obvious in sentence two of two in the quote above.

Depends on the type of event you are going to. Mainstream events, no you will not see ramming. I would be willing to bet that almost every event listed on the Tier 1 list allow and use ramming.

Dan Chmelar, as fellow who belongs to or associates with almost as many alphabet soup reenactment groups as I do, lends just a smidge more positive reenforcment to the notion that people who attend the better events tend to see the use of rammers as a normal practice as opposed to those who do not. Dan lives in Iowa, land of tall corn, pretty apple orchards, a fierce prison in Fort Madison, and a nice Taco John's in Burlington. I live in the People's Republic of Maryland, yet I've seen Dan at more events this year (and last) than a good number of folks right here in the travel-challenged Mid-Atlantic region.

Put it this way, many authentic living history events require cartridge ramming as part of the experience in drill, or demonstrations. In some cases, I've seen it done in battle situations as well.

Aaron doesn't seem to get out in the field much anymore, but some of us have been known to kidnap people (and their dogs at times) to haul them to events. He seems to remember ramming is part of the hobby in between staying home and rooting for Michigan football. ;)

I hope this answers your question.

Ley,

The real expense will be setting up all those lasers in the woods, so we know when we cross various property lines, either that or issuing GPS units that mount on bayonet lugs.

[john duffer]

Re: Ammunition

Since we've strayed a bit here, and before we get back to serious discussion - I don't think we think things through at times. I bought a bicycle helmet some years back with an opening in the top for airflow; I expressed concern to a friend that something like a guardrail end could go through that hole and was told "Don't worry, you'll probably hit the guardrail end with your face." My point being dual:
1.) I haven't run the numbers but I'm guessing the odds of you being injured on the road going to/from an event versus being injured with a errant ramrod would be at least 1000 times greater. ( oddly, it's only 10 times greater than not having a knapsack)
2.) If an angry man were charging me from 100 yards with a ax and I have a musket and 40 ramrods, I don't like my chances.

[Silas]

Re: Ramming

Coming from the land of the 30' safety rule and having been one of the Confederates in the featured photos, I can confidently state we were well outside that distance. I thought I was going to see something horrendous when I got to those photos. I am sooooo disappointed.

I did cringe when I viewed the photos at the tail end which show company after company marching at something called support arms but not resembling the support arms I've seen in period photos. Didn't someone write a really good article supported by many period photos?

Returning to the subject, I use balled up TP - previously unused - when making simulated rounds. Tying the rounds at the bottom and again above the TP adds some time to the process, but the rounds look good. Since it takes longer to make better rounds, I don't usually make as many rounds for my eastern trips as I do for local events. Fortunately, you're not going to shoot as many rounds at high end events - in part - because you're ramming. Drawing, ramming and returning the rammer slows down the shooting process to much more realistic times. To me that just adds to experience.

You bring your "A" grade gear and attitude to "A" grade events. Pie is optional.

[dnaples]

Re: Ramming

I have been to many events where ramming has been allowed and I have never feared for my life that someone on the other side was going to shoot their ramrod at me. I think it has a lot to do with training, and trusting those on the other side. But I'm glad mainstream events do not allow ramming. There are a lot of people there I do not trust.

As to cartridges I use TP too. I have used cotton balls, but I found in my '61 the cotton ball tends to get stuck down the barrel. Especially after firing a few rounds, which is sort of period correct, but annoying during a NPS firing demo. Cotton balls do work for a .69 caliber smoothbore weapon though as anything will go down the barrel. The only thing I hate about firing TP out of a .58 caliber weapon is the paper flying everywhere that kind of gives away the fact that you used TP.

In the ariticle on making cartridges on the Lazy Jack's website the author talks about using architectural model balls. I've talked to a friend of mine who is a architect student and he doesn't know where to get these. I know you can get them in England but is there anywhere to get them in the U.S.?

Thanks,

[Prodical Reb]

Re: Ramming

Eric, are you saying you deliberately fired a ramrod out of a musket and it travelled 30.00000 feet? Both Bill Watson and I have fired ramrods, independently of each other, and 30' is NOT the case.

Charles,
I believe the point RJ was trying to make was not ramming but the difference in aerodynamics of the flight of the ramrod. I belive his and Bill's went much further! Their maybe a difference in styles and calibers of weaponry and ramrods, rounds(paper, powder charge, wadding/ simulated round cartridge, etc..), and how much pressure builds up to propell said ramrods.

Illustrating once again some fundamental differences....

Let's try to keep the mainstream rhetoric down to a dull roar, shall we? Thank you for your cooperation.

I wouldn't call this F/M/A rhetoric, just a difference in experiment results and maybe a relook at the 30' safety buffer. Kinda like Mythbusters A/C style!

Hello,

Can you please explain what was mainstream about RJSamp question or any other safety issue discussed on this thread? I just would like to know so if I add to this discussion what not to bring up or ask.

Thanks

I would say the safety issues are what ever the event insurance can handle, be it NPS, LH on private property and how ironclad is the release signed by participants of any kind of event. Also responsibility and maturity of participants not to try and blame somebody else for their voluntary participation at a teir 1 event should the they be the first recieptiant of the wrong end of a ramrod bolt. Damm 21st century intrusions! sort'a like the 21st century gun issues of 19th century firearms!

just my 2 cents!

[DougCooper]

Re: Ramming

I will be blunt: Only a cretin, who ought not to have gun in his hands at all, would leave a rammer in a barrel. You NEVER take your hand off the rammer at any time in the loading procedure. In 20 years of doing this, I have never seen nor heard of anyone doing that in the tens of thousands of rammer uses.

I can hear the skeptics saying - "but what if the tulip breaks off?" If so, you will know it when you cut your pinkie on the jagged edge (if you somehow miss seeing it after withdrawing the rammer).

That part of the hobby that does not use rammers has somehow seized on one item at the lowest end of the risk spectrum, instead of fixing the real problems of unsafe human caused actions at their events. From suicide charges, cav running over infantry, dismounted cav wandering about, infantry charging loaded cannon, unsafe distances, civilians on the field and the two greatest safety issues, alcohol and unscripted tacticals, their duty is clear. Its called leadership and training, and is the very center of any effective safety program. Tackle the biggest risks first, instead of the lesser. Kind of basic.

I would love to see a cookoff study done that contrasts the cookoff rate for the "rammer using well trained slower firing barrel cooler" crowd vs the "non-ramming, butt banging, 6 rounds per minute barrel too hot to touch" crowd.

[IowaYank]

Re: Ramming

I will be blunt: Only a cretin, who ought not to have gun in his hands at all, would leave a rammer in a barrel. You NEVER take your hand off the rammer at any time in the loading procedure. In 20 years of doing this, I have never seen nor heard of anyone doing that in the tens of thousands of rammer use. -Doug Cooper

YES, THANK YOU Doug. That is exactly what I was trying to say in my earlier post. I agree 100%.

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Ramming

Speaking from personal experience:

When I did the 190th Waterloo Reenactment in Belgium, we used rammers AND fixed bayonets- by the way, we also did simulated hand-to-hand combat in close quarters (when we did so, we went to port arms and pushed our front line against our enemies' front line and then fell-back after a few minutes of doing so).

Now I know Europeans have arguably less liabilities at events, but this event was HUGE- imagine the mainstream Chickamaugua participation and you'll get an idea of how many people were in the battle... still ramming/fixed bayonets and close-quarters combat are standard practice at events there.

So... what's the harm in ramming cartridges at events here??? We just have to be aware of ourselves just a little more and be aware of that guy in the ranks that might be a little too excitable and forgetful in battles. All the more a good reason why we should train together more often in drill and deportment and get to know each other's comrade's at quality events.

My 2 cents... opinions are like vacuums...

Tchuss -Johnny

[Justin Runyon]

Re: Ramming

Simmer down now everyone. If you really fear becoming a wool (or poly/wool as the case may be) Kabob, then go to events that absolutley prohibit the use of rammers. The rest of us will still be searching for ways to advance our research, expierence, and understanding in the scope of our events.

I'll mimic a few others on this thread when I say that in 16 years in the hobby, I have never seen nor heard of High Vilocity Rammer Kabob Syndrome alfflicting anyone at any event anywhere. This is likely due to the above comment that you would have to be profoundly stupid, and slide under the radar of a good command structure, to pull this one off. Im happy looking across the field seeing men loading and firing as the manual states they should.