"Minister" for "Ambassador"?

[Johnny Lloyd]

To all-

A question that needles me and has bugged me for awhile: When did we (as in the USA) officially stop using the term "Minister" for the more "modern" term "Ambassador" to a foreign country?

I ask this not only for our own group edfication here on AC, but so we can record what group research has found on this subject. On this, I don't even know where to look...

I canot seem to find anything on this subject on my own, curiously...

Thoughts from the group?

Thanks- Johnny

PS- For that matter, when did we stop using "His Excellency" as a descriptive for the President of the United States or CSA for that matter?

PPS- Don't know 'bout ya'll, but this is the kinda stuff keeps me up at night... :sarcastic:D

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: "Minister" for "Ambassador"?

Hallo!

I was just signing off...
But at the moment, I am not recalling the U.S. using "ministers," it being a "monarchy" or a "parliamentary" thing versus secreataries, ambassadors, consuls, chairmen, and deputies since the 18th century?

Curt
Minister Without Portfolio Mess

[Parault]

Re: "Minister" for "Ambassador"?

Mr. Lloyd

I looked up the terms of Ambassador & Minister and found something that might help.

According to Reference.com The United States didn't use the rank of Ambassador until their emergence as a world power at the end of the 19th Century. In fact,until the mid-20th Century,the majority of diplomats were the rank of minister plenipotentiary.


Still working on the "His excellency" thing. I will see what my History Prof. says. He has been helpful in times like these. Since it has been years since I studied U.S. Goverment....like 1980 something

[Pennvolunteer]

Re: "Minister" for "Ambassador"?

Johnny,
I'm traveling on a business trip right now, but when I was in graduate school, I took a course on the History of US Diplomacy. I know we discussed this, but it was 15 years ago and I can't recall, but I know I still have the book and the note files. I'll try to look it up, but as already mentioned in the second post, it was having to do with being a Republic versus a Monarchy. I think Henry Cabot Lodge as Sec of State for TR was involved, but am working from memory of a long time ago. I'll get the book when I get home.

[ElizabethClark]

Re: "Minister" for "Ambassador"?

I don't have my favorite to hand, but another spot to check would be etiquette manuals, in the "forms of formal address" section.

[CYoungJSU]

Re: "Minister" for "Ambassador"?

I thought I would chime in on this post. I am still in the process of doing research on this subject. However, I did remember that Henry Clay was appointed as one of the peace commissioners to end the War of 1812. So, having Clay's papers, I found this quote, which supports an earlier post.

Passport for Clay and party to Gottenburg

To all who shall see these presents, Greeting: [February 4, 1814]
The President of the United States of America having appointed the Honorable Henry Clay, late Speaker of the House of Representatives, a Minister Plenipotentiary and Extraordinary, in conjunction with John Quincy Adams, James A. Bayard, and Jonathan Russell, Esquires, to negotiate and sign a treaty of Peace with Great Britain... Jas. Monroe

Volume 1

After Clay was appointed Sec. of State by J.Q. Adams, he sent around this:

Circular

Department of State, Washington, 10th. March, 1825.
To the Foreign Ministers residing in the United States.
The undersigned has the honour of notifying the Foreign Ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, that , having been appointed Secretary of State, he has entered upon the discharged of the duties of that Office, and will be happy to receive from them such communications as they may think proper to address to him in that capacity.
He avails himself, with pleasure, of the opportunity afforded him of requesting the Minister of His Majesty the King of to accept the assurance of his distinguished consideration
Henry Clay.

Volume 4

On March 15, 1825, Clay sends Instructions and Dispatches

To the MINISTERS, CONSULS, and PUBLIC AGENTS OF THE UNITED STATES IN EUROPE, a circular. Written at the direction of the President, requests " your friendly offices and every convenient facility: be extended to William Strickland.

Volume 4

On April 27, 1825, Clay received a letter from William Duncan requesting that the United States Minister in London (Rufus King) be instructed to lay before "Mr. Secretary Canning" a memorial and claim against Edward Tyrrel Smith and the British Government.

Throughout 1825, the majority of Clay's correspondence is addressed to "Ministers, Consuls, and Agents," not Ambassadors. The term does not appear during the first year of his stint as Sec. of State. I will check other volumes later. It will be interesting to see when the possible change in terminology occurred, or if the terminology was interchangeable at the time.

Chris

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: "Minister" for "Ambassador"?

Hate to say it, but I found it in the Wikipedia after digging. Reference the quote from it below at this address: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minister_%28diplomacy%29

According to the article, The Congress of Vienna 0f 1815 was responsible for establishing an internationally agreed-upon (by the European world powers of the time) of rank structures for diplomats.

Direct Quote as follows:

"1. Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary, or simply Ambassador, who is a representative of the head of state. Equivalent, and in some traditions primus inter pares, is the Papal nuncio. Amongst Commonwealth countries, the equivalent title High Commissioner (who represents the government rather than the head of state) is normally used instead.

A diplomatic mission headed by an ambassador would be known as an Embassy; one headed by a High Commissioner is called a High Commission. Ambassadors and high commissioners are entitled to use the title "His/Her Excellency" from the government and the people of the country they are appointed to.

2. Envoy Extraordinary and Minister Plenipotentiary. Usually just referred to as a Minister, an envoy is a diplomatic representative with plenipotentiary powers (i.e. full authority to represent the head of state), but ranking below an Ambassador. Where Embassies are headed by Ambassadors, Legations are headed by Ministers.

3. Minister Resident or Resident Minister, or simply Minister, is the, now extremely rare, lowest rank of full diplomatic mission chief, only above Chargé d'affaires (who is considered an extraordinary substitute).

Note that both the Minister Plenipotentiary and the Minister Resident are diplomatic ministers, which are not the same thing as government ministers or religious ministers. A diplomatic mission headed by either type of Minister would be called a Legation. As they formally represent the head of state, they are entitled to use the title "His/Her Excellency", which originally was reserved for Ambassadors.
4. Chargé d'affaires, or simply Chargé. As the French title suggests, a chargé d'affaires would be in charge of an embassy's or a legation's affairs in the (usually temporary) absence of a more senior diplomat. A Chargé d'affaires ad interim or simply "a.i." is generally serving as head of mission during the temporary absence of the head of mission, while the Chargé d'affaires e.p. or en pied maintains the same functions and duties as an ambassador, and is accredited not to the head of state but to the minister of foreign relations of the receiving state"

End of quote

The article also goes on to say:

Direct quote as follows:

" As it turned out, this system of diplomatic rank did nothing to solve the problem of the nations' precedence. The appropriate diplomatic ranks used would be determined by the precedence among the nations; thus the exchanges of ambassadors (the highest diplomatic rank) would be reserved among major nations, or close allies and related monarchies. In contrast, a major nation would probably send just an envoy to a minor nation, who in return would send an envoy to the major nation. As a result, the United States did not use the rank of ambassador until their emergence as a major world power at the end of the 19th century. Indeed, until the mid-20th century, the majority of diplomats in the world were of the rank of minister plenipotentiary."

End of quote

Again, I know Wiki can be wrong because it can be edited by anyone (kinda defeats the purpose of a reference website somewhat, huh?), but this is a good idea as to a direction for our collective research. If someone wants to bring more light to the history/development of the US/European diplomatic services during the 1800s, please do so.

Thanks- Johnny Lloyd

[ephraim_zook]

Re: "Minister" for "Ambassador"?

I ran the question past the associate dean of the School of Diplomacy and International Relations here at Seton Hall University, and got the following response, along with the promise to check further:

"The US still uses both terms, with minister being a lower rank than that of ambassador. For instance, at the US Mission to the UN, we have five people who serve with the rank of Ambassador, nine with the rank of Minister Counsellor, thirteen with the rank of Counsellor, and so on."

Ron Myzie

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: "Minister" for "Ambassador"?

Ron-

Good stuff. So far as the historical evidence that has been presented here on the thread- "Ambassador" is higher than "Minister" and until the end of the 19th century, most "ambassadors" were only of the rank of "minister".

I suppose the Congress of Vienna of 1815 was unofficially agreed upon by the relatively newly-independent USA of the time period...

... the CSA just fell-in with the old US's ranks for their "ministers" to foreign powers.

Great debate! Most educational! -Johnny :)

[DougCooper]

Re: "Minister" for "Ambassador"?

Ambassador was indeed a 20th Century rank. Dan Sickles was appointed Minister to Spain after the war, for instance. Today Ambassadors include both career Foreign Service Officers and Political Appointees. The stories are rife of awful political appointees being backed up by brilliant Chargé d'affaires (always career types) who keep the Ambassador (and our country) out of trouble with the host nation.

For comparison purposes, today a Minister Counselor is the equivalent of a 3.5 star within the Government rank structure and Ambassador is just above a 4 star.