"Non-standard" armaments discussion

[Johnny Lloyd]

To all:

I have just finished reading a great book called Archaeological Perspectives on the American Civil War by Clarence Geier and Steven Potter. In it, they cite the frequency of findings of caltrops (cavalry obstacles designed to hurt enemy horses' hooves) in the Highway 27 project corridor on the Chickamauga Battlefield.

"One hundred six caltrops were clustered together in the northern extentof the projected corridor. This type of item was thrown in roads and in front of defensive positions as a deterrent to cavalry attacks. The caltrops would catchthe hooves of horses, hobbling them. They were made of iron and were about two inches from point to point." (Geier and Potter: 2000, pg. 299)

That got me thinking as how to start an educated discourse about "non-standard" weaponry used in the American Civil War. It's a fascinating as well as a suprising topic at the ingenuity of our ancestors and to what extent they actually went to invent new ideas of weaponry or improve upon older ones. Some other examples I have heard of being used in the period were:

-caltrops
-lances (thrown away way-early in the war, but still used nonetheless)
-"land torpedoes" (I heard the first casualty of a land mine was a
Yankee officer on his horse. Does anyone have a reference on this?
What would the land torpedo look like anyway?)
-harbor naval mines (friction primer, battery ignition, etc)
-hand grenades (Ketchum's patent, etc.)
-volley guns
-early breech-loading artillery

On MythBusters on the Discovery Channel the other day, they tested the experimentally-documented idea of a Confederate "steam powered machine gun" that hurled lead bullets at its target with centrifugal force WITHOUT using valuable black powder. They said the idea was possible, but due to its inaccuracy and lack of ability to aim the weapon, then it was not useable. They said an original WAS built and tested, though.

The challenge: Can you think of others and cite specific references in published works to "non-standard" armaments? Any weapons we don't think of commonly as from the period, but were actually used will do fine here.

Thanks- Johnny Lloyd

[mmartin4600]

Re: "Non-standard" armaments discussion

In "Blood and Thunder, the Epic Story of Kit Carson and the Conquest of the American West", the Author, Hampton Sides describes the battle of Valverde in New Mexico. A contingent of Confederate Calvary commanded by Brig. Gen. Henry Hopkins Sibley had a unit of lancers attached. The author describes, "The flamboyant cavaliers carried nine foot-long staves fixed with twelve- inch blades from which festive red pennants were hung". They attempted one charge on the Union position and it ended in a complete slaughter. Nearly all of the 50 horsemen were killed or wounded. It was reported that the survivors burned their lances and then armed themselves with shotguns.

[mslaird]

Re: "Non-standard" armaments discussion

Caltrops were also used in an anti personell fashion as well as being used in an anti-beast of burden role. I was not aware that they were still in general use as late as the civil war but it would make sense. In grass as short as the serious rough on a golf course they would be nearly indetectible and very nasty to step on. Good thread, good discussion Mr. Lloyd.

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: "Non-standard" armaments discussion

In "Blood and Thunder, the Epic Story of Kit Carson and the Conquest of the American West", the Author, Hampton Sides describes the battle of Valverde in New Mexico. A contingent of Confederate Calvary commanded by Brig. Gen. Henry Hopkins Sibley had a unit of lancers attached. The author describes, "The flamboyant cavaliers carried nine foot-long staves fixed with twelve- inch blades from which festive red pennants were hung". They attempted one charge on the Union position and it ended in a complete slaughter. Nearly all of the 50 horsemen were killed or wounded. It was reported that the survivors burned their lances and then armed themselves with shotguns.

You know, until you mentioned it, I never knew the Confederates used lances... I have seen Union lances in pictures in research books (EOG- Union, I think... I don't have it with me right now.)

Get "festive" all they want to, lances don't do squat versus projectile weaponry... I don't blame them one bit for burning them.

Good call, sir- Johnny

[Iron Brigade Al]

Land Torpedos

Mr Lloyd

There is a picture in "Gone for a Soldier: The Civil War Memoirs of Private Alfred Bellard". Bellard encountered "torpedose" near Yorktown, Virginia during the Peninsula Campaign. Bellard wrote "The rebels had again planted some of their infernal machines, through which some 3 or 4 men lost their lives. Topedos were planted in any place that was likely to be visited by our men, on the walks by the forts and between graves were rebel soldiers had been buried. Wherever a torpedo had been buried, a short stick or branch was standing up, and woe be to the man or animal who tread on it or kicked it"

Bellard drew his own illustrations and it is hard to tell what these looked like exactly ( sorry I cant post an image at this time) but they look round or spherical with some kind or trigger mechanism on the top. Could they have been improvised from canteens or artillery shells of some kind? I've never come across any other pictures of these weapons.

Hope this has been of help, If I can I will post a picture when I am able to scan the image.

Regards

[Prodical Reb]

Re: "Non-standard" armaments discussion

There was the Agars "coffee mill" machine gun. If I recall correctly it was deployed and used but don't recall where or have any documentation over here. It had a hopper like a coffe mill that the rounds were dumped into and then hand cranked to fire. It was a single barrel configuration.

Another machine gun in existance but no documented use was Dr Gatling's invention that is still in use in today's DoD but it is electrically powered instead of hand cranked and belt fed instead of magazine fed (M-124 Mini gun, A-10 Warthog) and numerous calibers (5.56 mm, 7.62 mm, 20mm, 30mm). same gun though.

There were other types of hand grenades besides Ketchem's. Haynes Excelsior hand grenade was round like a ball and had many nipples/primers inside. An outer case that screwed together over the bomb w/nipples and primers. When thrown it landed and one of the primers hopefully ignited the encased bomb inside.

The CS copies of the Haynes was called the Raines Hand grenade and came with a finned tail like the Ketchum or a cloth streamer. Artillery Case shot was modified and fused to be thrown or rolled down an embankment wall

[ephraim_zook]

Re: "Non-standard" armaments discussion

The Athens Double-barreled cannon. Designed to simultaneously fire two cannon balls connected by a chain. Wasn't terribly successful for the inability to perfectly synchronize both detonations. Still, an interesting idea.

http://www.batteryb.com/double-barreled_cannon.html

Ron Myzie

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: "Non-standard" armaments discussion

There were other types of hand grenades besides Ketchem's. Haynes Excelsior hand grenade was round like a ball and had many nipples/primers inside. An outer case that screwed together over the bomb w/nipples and primers. When thrown it landed and one of the primers hopefully ignited the encased bomb inside.

The CS copies of the Haynes was called the Raines Hand grenade and came with a finned tail like the Ketchum or a cloth streamer. Artillery Case shot was modified and fused to be thrown or rolled down an embankment wall

That was the one I was thinking of... the Haynes model. Thanks! I didn't list it on here because I couldn't think of it last night. I saw the round inner ball with gunpowder/percussion caps on it and it was encased in a hard, metal outer shell. It's in EOG... right? Better hope it hits a rock or something hard when it lands or your SOL, right... ;)

Has anyone ever found evidence of hand-lit fuze w/burning match or smoldering punk to light it (Picture it: A round iron "bomb" like a Tom 'n' Jerry cartoon-style bomb) being used? I heard British Grenadiers had the Bishop's mitre-style hat so they could light/throw the grenades like this with one hand in the 18th century.

Question here: Did the grenade fall out-of-use with the improved accuracy of rifles? To use a grenade (from my own combat/training experience) I know you must get in VERY close to be effective. Did period rifles' improved range prevent this? I would think so.

How about Congreve's Rockets... any documentation on their use or frequency of use in the AmCiv? I know the British invented and used them in the Napoleonic Wars.

Ron-

Was the Athens Gun intended for anti-personnel use like a "chain-shot" used on ships' rigging? Terrible, if effective, against personnel... reckon it wasn't too effective. It's a wild-looking thing from the pic you provided.

Thanks- Johnny Lloyd

[Jubilo]

Re: "Non-standard" armaments discussion

Dear Sir ,
May I suggest "(Governor of Georgia ) Joe Brown pikes " ?
all for the old flag,
David Corbett

[csabugler]

Re: "Non-standard" armaments discussion

I was glad to see the "popular fiction" versi0n of the Athens D B Cannon was not referenced. There is an old story that the first shot spun wildly into the crowd of local politicians and dignitaries, killing several. (Which might not have been so bad, being they were politicians....)
Anybody recall the "Joe Brown pikes"? I have a great repro of the head from those that we used as a flag staff for our old NSSA rifle team.

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: "Non-standard" armaments discussion

From Wikipedia... so you know how dubious it MIGHT be. But it adds fuel to the discussion

Consider this from Wiki:

During the Civil War, the term "torpedo" was also used to refer to various types of bombs and booby traps. Confederate General Gabriel Rains deployed "sub-terra shells" or "land torpedoes", artillery shells with pressure fuses buried in the road by retreating Confederate forces to delay their pursuers. These were the forerunners of modern land mines. Union generals publicly deplored this conduct.

Confederate secret agent John Maxwell used a clockwork mechanism to detonate a large "horological torpedo" (time bomb) on August 9, 1864. The bomb was hidden in a box marked "candles" and placed aboard a barge containing Union ammunition—20,000–30,000 artillery shells and 75,000 rounds of small arms ammunition—that was moored at City Point, Virginia, on the James River. The explosion caused more than $2 million in damage and killed at least 43 people.

The coal torpedo was a bomb shaped like a lump of coal, to be hidden in coal piles used for fueling Union naval vessels. The bomb would be shoveled into the firebox along with the real coal, causing an explosion. Although the North referred to the device as the coal torpedo in newspaper articles, the Confederates referred to it as a "coal shell".

IEDs in the Confederacy??? Sounds like what I went through in Iraq. :confused_

Thanks- Johnny Lloyd

[Rear Rank 2]

Re: "Non-standard" armaments discussion

John,
Caltrops can be found as far back as the Romans and probably earlier.
The Grenadier hat you referred to worn by the Europeans was to allow the grenadier to sling his musket quickly so that he would have both hands free. About where we have our breast plate on the cartridge box sling they had a closed metal tube (for lack of a better description) that contained a slow match. After slinging their musket the match was retrieved with the left hand and then held out to the left at arms length, the grenade was grasped with the right hand, on command the match and grenade were brought together in front of the grenadier and the fuse lighted. The match was again held out to the left and the grenade hurled (the illustrations from the English grenadier drill book are interesting to say the least). Form the illustrations and having thrown grenades myself (0331 USMC) it seems that the left hand was pointed toward the target much the same way we were instructed. Doing this under fire took exceptional men which is one of the reasons grenadiers were considered elite units.
But I digress, along the line of caltrops how about cheviot de frieze? The spiked barricade used to block roads or avenues of approach.
Cheers
Andy

[mslaird]

Re: "Non-standard" armaments discussion

The early grenades of 17th century warfare through to the Napoleonic Wars were a bit heavier than our modern counterparts and one had to be fairly stout to throw them far or one had to get rather close to use them with decent effect on the enemy. They were also much more tempermental and thier fuses could not be depended on to be safe for the operator. My take is that the grenadier would light it and get rid of it as fast as possible, that is similar to our modern counterparts. They were made by the lowest bidder back then too.:D I have seen written reference to the use of grenades at Vicksburg and Petersburg. I will look and see if I can find anything else.

[Union Navy]

Re: "Non-standard" armaments discussion

The Courtenay torpedo (coal torpedo) posed such a threat to the Union Navy on the Mississippi that an order went out that anyone seen in the vicinity of a Union ship carrying a lump of coal was to be shot on sight.

The Navy used some surplus lances as boarding pikes.

Confederate water mines were among the most effective non-standard armaments, sinking over 40 Union ships.

The Confederate Navy built or operated around 20 submarines during the war, and even the Union Navy had one (the USS Alligator, the first submarine in the Navy). Confederate "Davids" were also unusual and somewhat successful.

[brown]

Re: "Non-standard" armaments discussion

Who's got the reference to the Confederates being issued grenades near the "Dead Angle" on Cheatham Hill at Kennessaw Mountain?