Proposed NY legislation concerning antique/black powder weapons

[Tom Craig]

Re: Proposed NY legislation concerning antique/black powder weapons

Johnny,

I don't really remember any of the details of either case, but I know of at least two homicides that I have heard about on TV news programs where CW reproduction black powder pistols were used. Like Bill W said, that is part of the less than one percent of firearm crimes committed across the country.

I also recall a number of years ago now that the state of Massachusetts (where I used to live) passed very restrictive firearms laws that ended up requiring modern gun locks even on the original Rev. War muskets that hung high in the state capitol rotunda. Strange, but true...

Take care,
Tom Craig

[JimKindred]

Re: Proposed NY legislation concerning antique/black powder weapons

Tom,

That same legislation all but shut down the Battle Road event that year. http://www.battleroad.org/ It also would not have allowed out of staters to bring into the state their "flintlock" assault rifles. Believe it or not this is one time that through the efforts of reenactors the legislature had to rethink what they had done.

Unfortunately it takes legislative mistakes like that to wake up reenactors to the fact that modern firearms legislation can and will effect them if they do not pay attention to what is being proposed in the legislatures around the country.

Some of you like me are old enough to remember when you had to fill out forms to buy blackpowder and if I remember correctly you were limited to one or two pounds per purchase unless you had a permit from ATF. If these legislative efforts of this type continue we may be headed back to those days.

Curt, I am sure you remember those days.

[PieBoy96]

Re: Proposed NY legislation concerning antique/black powder weapons

Haha, great comparison to the video, Mark!

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Proposed NY legislation concerning antique/black powder weapons

Hallo!

"Curt, I am sure you remember those days."

Hahahahahahaaha! They seem like last month, but feel like a hundred years ago.
Sigh.

Like the new 'Brady Check Process," it is a good thing those forms were/are destroyed as I would have a room or two full after all these years... ;) :)

Seriously, these things of today can add up to a Death By a Thousand Cuts as local jurisidctions and individuals states poke and stab at the reenacting community that thinks it is safe and sound as it is not "Modern Gun" related.

Curt

[kevin]

Re: Proposed NY legislation concerning antique/black powder weapons

Hello All,
I have mixed feelings about the gun control laws in NYS. I am a Police Officer in NYS and can see both sides of the issue. I do not intend to get involved in any debate here, but reply only with an interesting anecdote. In reference to Mr. Lloyds comment about not knowing of crimes committed with a pre 1900's repro or original. In september or October 2007 we had an attempted robbery of a person at a convenience store with what appeared to be a revolver. I was not working but am going by what I was told. The responding officers had a description of the getaway car and were able to locate and pull it over. Inside they found the suspect and the gun he used. It was a cap and ball revolver that one of my collegues said looked like a "Wyatt Earp Gun". They were unsure of how it worked or how to make it safe. They attempted to call me to see if I could help but I didn't answer. Finally they had another officer from a different town who is a black powder enthusiast and was able to make it safe. Here is the best part (or worst depending upon your view)-the moron robber had taken MODERN bullets and tried to jam them into the cylinder! The thing wouldn't have fired anyway! Like I said, I wasn't there and am only going by what I was told by my collegues after the fact. I don't know if it was a repro or original but it makes for a good story.

[JimKindred]

Re: Proposed NY legislation concerning antique/black powder weapons

No one ever said idiots and guns were a good mix be they a police officer or civilian.

Moderator hat on :

Now back to the topic of legislation concerning antique firearms and let's skip whether or not antique firearms have been used in a crime. They have, enough said.

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Proposed NY legislation concerning antique/black powder weapons

Seriously, these things of today can add up to a Death By a Thousand Cuts as local jurisidctions and individuals states poke and stab at the reenacting community that thinks it is safe and sound as it is not "Modern Gun" related. -Curt

Well, said mein Herr...

Lawd, ya'll...
Don't make it too public or the bored politicians have fuel for the fire on black-powder gun control... ;)

:p -Johnny

[Bob 125th NYSVI]

Re: Proposed NY legislation concerning antique/black powder weapons

OK guys some serious mis-statements here about the proposed law in question (A09543).

It would NOT add a permit requirement to NYS long gun owners.

NYS has a two part gun law.

It requires a background check for anybody wishing to purchase a long arm.

This background check is to ensure the individual wishing to purchase the weapon does not have a criminal record nor a document history of pyschological problems.

Currently 'antique' black powder weapons are exempt from this background check.

The law is intended to make anyone wishing to purchase a black powder long arm over .50 caliber go through the background check.

It IS NOT adding any requirements for owning a black powder weapon that currently does not exist for the purchase of modern long arms.

You can walk into your local NY Wal-Mart fill out the form and walk out with your modern long arm three business days later provided you are not a criminal or nut-case.

There is NO permit system for owning a long arm in NYS.

Pistols are covered by a permit system in NYS. The permits are managed at a local level (for example in my county the county sheriff's department processes the permits and they are fairly easy to get).

At this time in NYS you can purchase a black powder 'antique' pistol with out a permit. What (in theory) a local gun store can not do is sell you ammuntion for the pistol with out a valid permit listing the pistol.

The law as proposed DOES NOT address pistols at all.

The reason(s) for the proposed law is because a student at St. John's University (my alma mater) in Jamacia was apprehended on campus with a loaded black powder rifle. He has a history of mental illness. In a second incident a convicted felon in possession of a black powder rifle he legally acquired shot and wounded a state trooper.

If either of the owners of the weapons in question weapons had been forced to go through the current background system check (in place for modern weapons) they would not have had (legal) possession of those weapons and could not have threatened anyone with them.

This is not a 'chicken little' scenario guys.

[JimKindred]

Re: Proposed NY legislation concerning antique/black powder weapons

It would be a lot simpler for everyone concerned if NY along with a few other states would just follow Federal law and leave it at that.

[1stMaine]

Re: Proposed NY legislation concerning antique/black powder weapons

Comrades,

I'd say it would be even better to scrap firearms laws entirely and concentrate on the issue of personal responsibility. I fail to understand how the courts (let alone the citizens) can support laws which regulate a right given to us by our own Constitution.

Let's keep the discussion centered on the state of NY. Constitutional issues are for another thread or forum for that matter. JK


Respects,

[JimKindred]

Re: Proposed NY legislation concerning antique/black powder weapons

Another issue out of state firearms owners traveling through NY have to be aware of is that this state routinely violates the Firearms Owners Protection Act of 1986. Be very careful if you are out of state traveling through NY, while it is legal for you to do so with a firearm modern or otherwise NYC and NY state are well known to violate the travel provisions of this Act and leave it up to the firearm owner to prove they were legal. By the slim chance this antique firearms law passes reenactors traveling through NY from out of state could find themselves dealing with Barney even though they were legal to transport the musket into and out of the state under current Federal law/regulations. The FOPA was enacted to protect firearms owners from states interferring with the legal interstate transport of firearms.

You have to operate on the principal that many local law enforcement officers are ignorant of firearms laws and many are.

[JimKindred]

Re: Proposed NY legislation concerning antique/black powder weapons

If either of the owners of the weapons in question weapons had been forced to go through the current background system check (in place for modern weapons) they would not have had (legal) possession of those weapons and could not have threatened anyone with them.

This is not a 'chicken little' scenario guys.

Of course you have to ask, had the incidents involved a hammer or knife would there have been a call for a background check to be instituted? Both are equally dangerous and when used improperly as the muzzleloader was they are weapons. You can darn sure threatened someone with either.

NY legislators are just using these muzzleloaders incidents to score points. Why is it that they only will require this background check on muzzleloaders .50 cal or better? A .45 cal muzzleloader will make you just as dead. This whole thing is nothing about safety it is about control and scoring political points.

[Bob 125th NYSVI]

Re: Proposed NY legislation concerning antique/black powder weapons

It would be a lot simpler for everyone concerned if NY along with a few other states would just follow Federal law and leave it at that.

Now Jim if we did that how could we maintain the title of the "Most Disfunctional Government" in the USA and have the second largest budget in the nation behind only the Feds?

[Bob 125th NYSVI]

Re: Proposed NY legislation concerning antique/black powder weapons

Of course you have to ask, had the incidents involved a hammer or knife would there have been a call for a background check to be instituted? Both are equally dangerous and when used improperly as the muzzleloader was they are weapons. You can darn sure threatened someone with either.

Well I'd concede that point IF NYS required background checks for the purchase of certain types of knives or hammers and the type(s) used in the crime were exempt.

In this case that doesn't apply.

The state requires background checks for the purchase of modern long guns, the guns in question are currently exempt. All that is proposed is a closing of a loop-hole not a new level of restriction/permit.

NY legislators are just using these muzzleloaders incidents to score points. Why is it that they only will require this background check on muzzleloaders .50 cal or better? A .45 cal muzzleloader will make you just as dead. This whole thing is nothing about safety it is about control and scoring political points.

Now you are crediting the Legislators with too much intelligence (which I can assure you living 35 miles west of the state capital they don't have). I'm sure the weapons used in the crimes in question were .50 caliber or above and the legislators are too stupid (as is most of their constituents) to know that there are antique long arms of less than .50 cailber.

Beleive me if the weapons used in the crimes were .22 black powder long arms the law would take that into account.

And just in case someone assumes I'm sort of liberal anti-gun nut I currently own:

.58 1861 Springfield
13 gauge antique French Shotgun
7.82mm 88 GEW Commission Rifle
.44 Remington BP pistol
.44 single shot BP pistol
30-06 Mannlicher
.22 Caliber level action Remington rifle

So NYS guns laws and their changes do affect me.

[Prodical Reb]

Re: Proposed NY legislation concerning antique/black powder weapons

Of course you have to ask, had the incidents involved a hammer or knife would there have been a call for a background check to be instituted? Both are equally dangerous and when used improperly as the muzzleloader was they are weapons. You can darn sure threatened someone with either.

NY legislators are just using these muzzleloaders incidents to score points. Why is it that they only will require this background check on muzzleloaders .50 cal or better? A .45 cal muzzleloader will make you just as dead. This whole thing is nothing about safety it is about control and scoring political points.

Current anti-gunner buzz word right now is "50 caliber"! Jim is correct in saying that it is a "control issue"! the Anti gunners want to rid the world of the dreaded 50 cal and larger modern arms and are using this BP incident to further their agenda of eliminating these and larger calibers reguardless of whose toes they step on (ours being reenactors)! And if they can score BP too Kudos they think. New York reenactors need to write their politicians and let them know what they think about this proposed law

Well I'd concede that point IF NYS required background checks for the purchase of certain types of knives or hammers and the type(s) used in the crime were exempt.

In this case that doesn't apply.

The state requires background checks for the purchase of modern long guns, the guns in question are currently exempt. All that is proposed is a closing of a loop-hole not a new level of restriction/permit.

Now you are crediting the Legislators with too much intelligence (which I can assure you living 35 miles west of the state capital they don't have). I'm sure the weapons used in the crimes in question were .50 caliber or above and the legislators are too stupid (as is most of their constituents) to know that there are antique long arms of less than .50 cailber.

Beleive me if the weapons used in the crimes were .22 black powder long arms the law would take that into account..........

So NYS guns laws and their changes do affect me.

What loop hole are you talking about? The question is should there be a background check to purchase muzzle loading rifles? ATF and current federal law (Big Brother) says no, and the smart criminal doesn't use them for obvisous physical shortcomings! Obviously undergunnned by a modern service revolver, the criminal got what he deserved!

Had he used a small crossbow would a background check be needed for one of these equally deadly weapons?