Proposed NY legislation concerning antique/black powder weapons

[Prodical Reb]

In light of several events occurring in the state of NY, legislaters are proposing new laws regulating antique or black powder firearms. This has been posted for informative purposes only with no political spin. Here is the website:

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.as...20080108a.html

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Proposed NY legislation concerning antique/black powder weapons

"If this bill were to become law, it would require all current owners of muzzleloaders to get a license similar to a pistol license just to possess these items in their homes and use them on their private property," he stated. "That's what's bad about it."

If the above quote from the article is correct, this bill would make antique/muzzleloading arms ownership more restrictive in NY than modern handgun ownership in most other states. In Indiana, I can own most varieties of modern arms without a license. A personal protection permit is required to carry a handgun concealed or carry a loaded weapon in a car, etc.

Very interesting article. I would be surprised to see the bill passed in its current form... but I've been surprised before.

Here is a link to the bill:

http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=A09543

[mtvernon]

Re: Proposed NY legislation concerning antique/black powder weapons

In Indiana, I can own most varieties of modern arms without a license. A personal protection permit is required to carry a handgun concealed or carry a loaded weapon in a car, etc.

I wonder what the per-capita statistic on gun-related violence is in Indiana as compared to New York. I would expect Indiana has a much lower rate of violence, consistent with other cities and countries with more permissive gun laws.

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Proposed NY legislation concerning antique/black powder weapons

Gents-
From what I was reading on the website, there seems to be a need to clarify the term "muzzloaders" in the respect as to modern muzzloaders (usually used by hunters and sportsmen) and antique/antique reproduction muzzloaders (used by us hobbyists). Was the State Rep that drafted this measure aware of the difference? To my knowledge, no one have ever used a pre-1900s repro or original to commit a crime. I've heard of stupid accidents out of negligence, but no crimes I'm aware of.

Perhaps a "pre-1900 original or reproduction model make" (meaning modern muzzloaders ONLY) definition in the legisltion would help clarify this?

Was the weapon that injured Reif a modern-model muzzloader? The article doesn't seem to specify. Some modern muzzloaders look like semi-automatic modern weapons, but a musket looks nothing of the sort. To an uneducated eye, this might cause confusion to be lumped-in with "all guns"- automatic, semi-automatic etc.

I'd be suprised to see this pass in its current form too. What might work for New York doesn't necessarily work for America as-a-whole. I feel this is "knee-jerk" change just for the sake of change and an accomplishment bullet on a State Rep's resume for reelection.

Thanks- Johnny Lloyd


PS- It would be a stupid thief to rob a bank with a musket... maybe unless he could use his bayonet. In that case, it's easier to bring a knife and a pistol, so why bother. Politicians gotta know this... :confused_

PSS- Has anyone ever heard of a "drive-by musketing"?:p

[mslaird]

Re: Proposed NY legislation concerning antique/black powder weapons

"Also, Mathison said that the legislation's 'knee-jerk response' to the incidents that involved muzzle-loading firearms could also restrict hunting in New York state, which he called 'a big deal.' (Randy Hall, 'Antique Firearms'...)

This quote pretty much states the problem. "knee-jerk response" pretty much sums it up nicely. Legislators usually react to quickly to a "problem" before they actually investigate the impact their lawmaking will have across the board. I would like to see statistics of violent crimes involving black powder firearms, not including suicides, for the state over the last fifteen years. I seriously doubt that there are enough crimes perpetrated using this obsolete weaponry to warrant such legislative measures.

I was a police officer here in Arkansas for just shy of six years. I can only recall three black powder firearms being used in any type of incident. One was a suicide, one was a siezed weapon that was taken during a drug bust, the other was a .36 caliber colt clone pistol used to threaten someone. Now some who live in New York might argue that their crime rate is a bit higher. I would rebut that our amount of gun owners and black powder gun owners is a bit higher than theirs. We are after all one of the great states of "shooting stuff."

Tougher gun laws for the larger metropolitan areas restricting the sales of magazine-fed, semi-automatic rifles and handguns is not too much of a problem for me but that can be handled by city and county ordinances requiring permits for purchasing and background checks, Onslow County, North Carolina is a good example of this practice. Don't get me wrong, I am a big supporter of our second ammendment rights. Now some on the other side of the fence some would argue that the people who want to purchase firearms would do so outside of the county or city. Yes people do that, and the criminals for the most part do not use legal means to obtain their weapons and they do not seem to have a shortage of them or a problem getting them. I believe that there is enough legislation out there and those laws should be enforced instead of trying to convolute the issue with more laws. That being said, the three states that are the most willing to restrict anything are New York, New Jersey and California. All three of these knee-jerk offenders use their crime rate as an excuse to trample the rights of their own citizenry. It would not suprise me to see this legislation succeed and I do agree that it would be a travesty to for it to do so.

[Rob]

Re: Proposed NY legislation concerning antique/black powder weapons

One would hope that those of us already possessing New York CCW permits would be exempt.

But, of course, this is New York... Any reason to take more of our money is a good one.

[davidf]

Re: Proposed NY legislation concerning antique/black powder weapons

It it just me, or does it seem like that anytime that someone tries to put out a law restricting something involving Civil War reenactors, that the law is not doing that much good because of the lack of knowledge of the people proposing it. Look at the guys trying to pass that law on labeling reproductions to differ them from original items. If they actually took time to research the issue, that the law is somewhat extreme and that the real problem is that some collectors of original Civil War items do not know enough about what their collecting. Now we have this law. The real problem here is that people here have not really looked at the difference between weapons that much. I bet you the weapons used in those incidents listed above were models of weapons made after 1900 (if not within the last 20 years), and not a Civil War era or earlier type weapon (like stated above). If they do want to tighten any regulations at all, be more specific. It seems to me that the concept of this weapon gets sillier when you think about older and older models of weapon. Just imagine those who shoot matchlocks, I do not picture them robbing a bank or doing a drive by with that one. "Slow the car down! My slow match is going out and the powder in the pan is blowing away!" I think that anyone who is going to hold up a bank is going to go with a different weapon. Let us not forget how much a Civil War era reproduction costs these days, at least $400 most likely (for a basic one, with no defarbing). If I remember correctly, I think you can get a AK 47 for less on the black market. If you have $400, if you still need to rob the bank, wouldn't you go with the AK 47? Silly, silly, silly. Also, has anyone actually thought of looking at the ratio of how many crimes are down with black powder muzzle loaders with modern weapons? I bet you it is something like in the 1 to 10,000 or something (probably more). If I were a politician, I would try and crack down on the other 9,999 criminals with modern weapons first, and not the 1.

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Proposed NY legislation concerning antique/black powder weapons

David-

"It it just me, or does it seem like that anytime that someone tries to put out a law restricting something involving Civil War reenactors, that the law is not doing that much good because of the lack of knowledge of the people proposing it. "

More importantly, I feel it is attributed the fact that legislators are as a whole (there are exceptions) not part of or fully understand the impact to our "hobby subculture" when they try to propose this stuff.

Also... do they even care about the economic and cultural impact of laws like this on our subculture anyway ?

-Johnny

[mslaird]

Re: Proposed NY legislation concerning antique/black powder weapons

No, they are just wanting to hang another vote out there to show all of their overly concerned and overly uneducated buddies that they are against any private citizen owning any type of firearms, period. I have heard the rhetoric for and against from both sides of the argument way too many times. You cannot convince those who want them that they do not need the exterminator 2000 with the five hundred round drum magazine just as you will not convince the ones that think that any firearm, even an inert one that hangs on the wall is bad and should be banned becuase you could scare someone to death with it. Some of these goobers are the ones that think that the police should not be armed either and they generally try to legislate the police into nothing more than glorified security guards on a regular basis as well.

By the by... the matchlock driveby was pretty good.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Proposed NY legislation concerning antique/black powder weapons

Hallo!

"To my knowledge, no one have ever used a pre-1900s repro or original to commit a crime."

I am rusty, as I do not follow these kind of things, but here is my "memory's worth..."

An investigative report in NY is kicking the anthill on this issue, and the knee-jerk reaction is flowing.

I believe the last BATF study indicated that blackpowder weapons figured in .013% of gun-related incidents, the vast majority being accidental shootings.

IMHO, what is driving the current round of hysteria and policking was the wounding of NY trooper Amanda Reif who was shoot by a rapist in the vest and finger responding to a domestic violence call.
And, Omesh Hiraman, a 22 year mentally-ill idiot caught with a .50 muzzleloading rifle in a bag at St. John's University in Queens while wearing a Fred Flintstone mask.

The other one I recall, and I forgotten her name, was a Norristown, PA nurse shot at her hospital with a C & B revovler a while back by her "Former."

Curt

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Proposed NY legislation concerning antique/black powder weapons

Hallo!

"To my knowledge, no one have ever used a pre-1900s repro or original to commit a crime."

I am rusty, as I do not follow these kind of things, but here is my "memory's worth..."

An investigative reporter and politician in NY is kicking the anthill on this issue, and the knee-jerk reaction is flowing.

I believe the last BATF study indicated that blackpowder weapons figured in .013% of gun-related incidents, the vast majority being accidental shootings.

IMHO, what is driving the current round of hysteria and policking was the wounding of NY trooper Amanda Reif who was shot by a rapist with a C & B revolver in the vest and finger responding to a domestic violence call.
And, Omesh Hiraman, a 22 year mentally-ill idiot caught with a .50 muzzleloading rifle in a bag at St. John's University in Queens while wearing a Fred Flintstone mask.

The other one I recall (1999?), also a mentally ill idiot, where two Norristown, PA nurses were shot after a stand-off at a mental hospital with a C & B revolver- Carol Kepner shot in the head at point-blank range, and Maria Jordan shot several times but lived.

Curt

[pisgahrifle]

Re: Proposed NY legislation concerning antique/black powder weapons

Tougher gun laws for the larger metropolitan areas restricting the sales of magazine-fed, semi-automatic rifles and handguns is not too much of a problem for me but that can be handled by city and county ordinances requiring permits for purchasing and background checks, Onslow County, North Carolina is a good example of this practice.

Out of curiosity, what is Onslow County's procedure in regards to firearms purchases? Insofar as I'm familiar with NCGS, counties and municipalities are only allowed to regulate the open carrying of arms within their jurisdictions as that particular issue was specifically exempted from the state's preemption statute dealing with firearms regulations. Counties must perform background checks for purchase of a handgun and for issuance of concealed carry permits, but requiring additional checks for purchase of anything other than a handgun puts the county/municipality in violation of the aforementioned statute.

-Phillip Brown

[billwatson]

Re: Proposed NY legislation concerning antique/black powder weapons

"To my knowledge, no one have ever used a pre-1900s repro or original to commit a crime."

Well, plenty were used for that purpose before 1900 and there are pre-1900 black powder rimfire revolvers one could use without much really being different from a modern pistol, might even have more noise and certainly more smoke and uproar. None of these folks who want guns to commit crimes are actually concerned with things like how far it can accurately shoot. It's for intimidation.

What the one fellow in the story said seems to sum it up: They want anyone who owns anything you can put a bullet in to get an owner's permit. As a position, that simplifies things immensely. But it's a shame all this is being driven by one imbecile in a Fred Flintstone mask and a not-so-bright felon who went up against the law with a muzzle loader. It's far more interesting to me that, while he wounded the trooper, he lost the subsequent gunfight. It's why use of black power single-shot weapons to commit crimes is going to be limited to imbeciles and not-too-bright people who are probably going to muck it up in other ways.

[PieBoy96]

Re: Proposed NY legislation concerning antique/black powder weapons

I completely agree with the last two paragraphs of the article. If the legislation went through, yes, all-law abiding citizens would register their muzzleloaders and purchase them in the appropriate manner. And criminals would not. This doesn't really do anything but hurt the common citizen.

[markj]

Re: Proposed NY legislation concerning antique/black powder weapons

Paul,

Old Political Maxim: "Never think logically...it'll only get you in trouble and you won't get reelected."

I'm afraid, Paul, the thought proceses for politicians in Albany mirror those of "Nigel Tufnel":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhVWJgIzftE

Mirthfully yours, &c.,

Mark Jaeger