Forming the company w/ odd man on the right

[john duffer]

Over the years I've seen a wide variety and numerous arguments on forming the company but have also, with a handful of exceptions, seen folks quite certain that you start with a two man file on the right and if there's an odd man he goes on the left. The "official" method of forming the company in 1835 was by SCOTT'S TACTICS which seems to put two men in the last file and any odd man on the right. I don't see this replaced anywhere from then till post war by anything "official" and manuals like GILHAM that mention it at all seem to be SCOTT with a slight modernization of commands. I can't see why there would be arguement or any mystery on how to form a company, and, for the other - odd on the left can mean a rear 1 or rear 2 man, on the right always a rear 2. Odd on the right works fine for stacking, gives at least a comrades of 3 if skirmishing and is at least as efficient on Right Face with rear 2 stepping over and then forward.

Odd man on left as rear 2 works better on Left Face but leaves a comrade of one - odd man on left as rear 1 works same as odd on right - neither works well stacking.

So where does can't have odd on the right come from ?

[Clsinclair]

Re: Forming the company w/ odd man on the right

John,

It comes from other reenactors and habits and the old saying, "That is how we always did it". During a School of the NCO this weekend we reviewed forming the company by Gilhams. We ended up with the odd man on the right back file. Then I heard "shift one file on the right" from the back file. I asked "why"? The answer from a few was that it will make an odd file when we right face. I then asked, "But what I wanted to left face, how would you fix that"?

[Silas]

Re: Forming the company w/ odd man on the right

So where does can't have odd on the right come from ?

Hardee, Gilham, Casey and probably Scott :

[HC 4 / G 216 / CC 5] : The company will always be formed in two ranks. The instructor will then cause the files to be numbered, and for this purpose will command:

In each rank-Count Twos.

[HC 5 / G216 / CC 6] : At this command, the men count in each rank, from right to left, pronouncing in a loud and distinct voice, in the same tone, without hurry and without turning the head, one, two, according to the place which each one occupies. He will also cause the company divided into platoons and sections, taking care that the first platoon is always composed of an even number of files.

Reenacting companies frequently don't use platoons. This causes the odd man - if there be one - to be at the end of the company on either the left or right depending upon whether the method of forming the company is by Gilham or Hardee/Casey.

If the formation method is Gilham and there is an odd man, the first platoon needs to be manually altered so that there is an even number of men in that company. The only location I can figure for the odd man in the Gilham method is at the right of the second (left) platoon. This odd man could be the corporal on the right of the second (left) platoon. If there is an even number of soldiers in the entire company, then the space behind the right corporal of the second (left) platoon is filled.

Anyone know of a logical, but simple, method of placing the corporals at the ends of the two platoons? Placement of corporals is easy. One on the right and left of each platoon. How they are inserted has always baffled me.

[john duffer]

Re: Forming the company w/ odd man on the right

Silas

It says even number of files - not even number of men. The 1st corporal is the first file, it doesn't matter if that file has one, two or three men. This was intended in SCOTT 1835 with three ranks being the norm and after forming company in the prescribed manner the 1st file could have three or two or one. I haven't seen anything so far saying 'rear rank shift right', and playing with a company on CADD can't find any disadvantage with odd on right.

[markj]

Re: Forming the company w/ odd man on the right

This might be potentially helpful to you as well:

United States Army & Navy Journal, 20 February 1864, "Answers to Correspondents"
***************
“VOLUNTEER OFFICER.”—When the Colonel of a regiment at review, or on dress
parade, commands, “To the rear, open order—march,” the Lieutenant-Colonel should, we think, pass around, at the command, from the right, and the Major around the left flank of the battalion, and in front of the company officers. In counting off files from the right, as many files of fours should be completed as possible. After this you may have remaining a broken file of either one, two, or three men. When the company [is] marched to the front, and has an odd man, he should be in the rear rank, and near to the left file. When the company is marched to the left, and has a broken file of four, that broken file should lead; should the broken file have but one man, in case the company faces to the left, the man of the rear rank, who covers him, will step back to his own file. Should the broken file have two men, when the company faces to the left, they will face and remain on their ground. Should the broken file have three men, when the company forms to the left, the rear rank man of the left file will face to the left, and make the side step to the left. Paragraph 1,026, Vol. 2, CASEY’s Tactics, applies to a simple, as well as double column; and so far as the senior officer of the front is concerned, modifies par. 1,015.
*************

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[Silas]

Re: Forming the company w/ odd man on the right

Duffer,

I saw the difference in the text between files and men, but that's a difference without a distinction. What's the point in mandating an even number of files when there isn't an even number of men? If we're only talking Hardee or Casey, keeping an even number is a breeze because the men are numbered from their right. But you're talking Gilham which is numbered from the left. My soft recollection of Baxter was that the ranks are formed with the men facing to the rear and then to the front. I haven't looked at that method in a while so I'm hedging on Baxter.

It has always struck me as odd that Gilham used that same language found in Hardee and later Casey when the numbering was from the left, not the right. Gilham cut some text from Hardee and clarified other text when he created his manual of instruction. He left the language about even files for a reason. I've got to think that even files meant even men even.

As far as mechanics are concerned, there is no difference to me whether there is an odd number on the right or left. The tasks the men perform to the right should be performed to the left. Left-face and By Company into Line from the left flank and the battalion countermarch as found in the tactics being three examples. Same goes for forward and rearward. Marching in a battle line then facing about and marching a distance before returning to the front being an example. Some folks get freaked out when they are "backwards" to what they are accustomed to doing.

I agree that the rear rank shift to the right should not be done. It defeats the entire purpose of placing the men by height in a single rank before the facings commence. Moving shorter guys behind taller guys doesn't seem like a very good idea. The shift should not occur.

Jaeger's comments about broken files from the Journal will have me thinking for a while. The big difference is that it is advice for a manual which numbers the men from the right, not the left. There is still some value in the text, but I need to think about it.

Jaeger's other comments are timely. Last night I was reviewing my notes related to the duties of the field officers when opening ranks in parade. (I'm giving a lecture on parade in a couple weeks.) Under the tactics and the regulations, the field officers make sure the rear rank and the rank of file closers are properly aligned. There is a discrepancy in the two regarding whether the field officers proceed to their posts before or after the command of "front" is given. The advice from the journal would make the discrepancy moot if it wasn't so soft : "the Lieutenant-Colonel should, we think, pass around ..." That language isn't as firm as in the other portions of the same response in the journal.

Had that language been written in a mandatory tone, it would have killed the idea of aligning the rear and file closer ranks. The adjutant cannot tell if the ranks are aligned. A pair of field officers - each on the right of where the line will rest - looking down their respective ranks to the end man with his musket inverted can see much better than an adjutant. This language has the field officers doing practically nothing during parade when they previously had an important task to perform.

I'm going to mention this language in my lecture about parade, but only as a caveat. The journal is very helpful for fleshing out ambiguous text in the regulations and tactics. However, when it contravenes said text in soft language, I have trouble giving it much weight.

[BrianHicks]

Re: Forming the company w/ odd man on the right

Not that it helps any... but the modern drill manuals in todays armed services, generate the same kinds of discussions and differences in practice, as it appears Hardee's, Casey's and Gilham's did 140+ years ago.

I have seen, on more than a few occasions (i.e. almost every change of command or ceremonial parade I've participated in), where when you get two or more Sergeants Majors, all of whom had been Chief Drill Instructors in their careers, whom can not agree on precisely how the manual dictates certain maneuvers or series of maneuvers or formations are supposed to be conducted. And this... with each many carrying a copy of the manual with them... so... who's found to be right?

The one with the most Seniority! ofcourse.... :D

[john duffer]

Re: Forming the company w/ odd man on the right

"What's the point in mandating an even number of files when there isn't an even number of men? "

So your platoon ends with twos rather than ones.

"But you're talking Gilham which is numbered from the left"

I don't believe that's the case, I'll doublecheck in the book tonight but this is clipped from the Drill Network version of Gilhams:

....At this command the men count in each rank from right to left,...

[Clsinclair]

Re: Forming the company w/ odd man on the right

In each rank - count TWOS
At this command the men count in each rank from right to left.

Gilhams

[Silas]

Re: Forming the company w/ odd man on the right

The men are counted from the right in all circumstances, but they are initially formed in the Hardee/Casey method on the right : "in two ranks form company - right face - march." In Gilham, the initial formation is from the left : "in two ranks form company - left face - march." The damage of the potential odd man on the right in the Gilham method occurs after the initial facing to the left, and before the ranks are counted and faced to the right.

My limited time on the law library computer is almost up so I must close.

[Rob Murray]

Re: Forming the company w/ odd man on the right

Anyone know of a logical, but simple, method of placing the corporals at the ends of the two platoons? Placement of corporals is easy. One on the right and left of each platoon. How they are inserted has always baffled me.

Silas, I'm not sure what you're getting at here. This may help. From 1855 Hardees vol.1, Title First, Article First, #8. The formation of a regiment is in two ranks; and each company will be formed into two ranks, in the following manner: the corporals will be posted in the front rank, and on the right and left of platoons, according to hight; the tallest corporal and the tallest mail will form the first file, the next two tallest men will form the second file, and so on to the last file, which will be company of the shortest corporal and the shortest man. Van Ness goes on in the "National School of the Soldier", Title First #14 Q. How will the corporals be posted? A. In the front ranks, on the right and left of platoons and sections.

So where does can't have odd on the right come from ?

John, I think this is covered in the same quote from Hardees.

[DougCooper]

Re: Forming the company w/ odd man on the right

What's the big deal? At Outpost we had an extemely odd man on the right (Holler) and everything turned out OK :D

Seriously, logic would dictate that one would always have an even number of men in the first platoon as we spend the majority of our time right in front, as did they. But we don't need to rely on logic as Rob has hit the nail on the head in his quote from Hardees:

"tallest corporal and tallest man will form the first file."

[Andy Ackeret]

Re: Forming the company w/ odd man on the right

Gilhams, pg 33, No. 8:

"The officers an non-commissioned officers of the company are posted in the following manner:

The captain on the right of the company, touching with the left elbow.

The first sergeant, in the rear rank, touching with the left elbow[emphasis mine], and covering the captain. In the maneuvers he is denominated covering sergeant, or right guide of the company."

So, per the manual, the left elbow of the first sergeant is touching the company. That, to me, implies a man has to be in the rear rank of the first file.

[Rob Murray]

Re: Forming the company w/ odd man on the right

but they are initially formed in the Hardee/Casey method on the right : "in two ranks form company - right face - march."

Silas, I agree but also disagree with this statement. My reason is the company needs to be formed prior to doing this. The way I interpret Hardees, is to start from the beginning and work to the end. Hence my citing #8 in my prior post.

School of the Soldier is done in one rank with nothing said about sizing.

Title Third, SCHOOL OF THE COMPANY. General Rules and Division of the School of the Company.
1. Instruction by company will always precede that by battalion, and the object being to prepare the soldiers for the higher school, the exercises of detail by Company will be strictly adhered to, as well in respect to principles, as the order of progression herein proscribed.

2. There will be attached to a company undergoing elementary instruction, a captain, a covering sergeant, and a certain number of file closers, the whole posted in the manner indicated, Title First, and, according to the same Title, the, officer charged with the exorcise of such company will herein be denominated the instructor. italics mine

Formation of a company from two ranks into. single rank, and reciprocally.

359. The company being formed into two ranks, in the manner -indicated No. 8, italics mine

and back again

1. In two ranks, form company. 2. Company, right-FACE. 3. MARCH.

365. At the second command, the company will face to the night: the right guide and the 'Man on the right will remain faced to the front

To sum up, the company has to be formed or has already been formed per #8 in order to do "In two ranks form company."

[john duffer]

Re: Forming the company w/ odd man on the right

Note that I’m not pushing the odd man on the right theory but asking is that what we should be doing, if not, then how does it work when you’re forming the company from the left, etc. Only a methodical approach that looks at the big picture and casts an unprejudiced eye at “we’ve always done it that way” is likely to give any useful result. The only helpful evidence I’ve seen here so far has been Mark J’s post which has given me a glimmer of an idea. As for the proofs:

The tallest corporal and the tallest man form the right file so there can’t be an odd man on the right, right ?

“and so on to the last file, which will be composed of the shortest corporal and the shortest man.” so there can’t be an odd man on the left, right ?

The 1st sergeant touches the rear rank man with the left elbow – unless the captains is in front of the company then he touches the front rank man.. The first platoon has even number of files but doesn’t have to have an even number of men, tall corporal as a one man file doesn’t really seem to cause any problem, I don’t see this as proof there can’t be odd on the right. It sounds like there should not be a missing rear rank in the 1st file or the last file, in fact, everything I see is written for a perfect world where companies have 40 or 38 rank & file but never 39 or 41, except for what Mark posted. It pretty much puts the odd man on the left but has the odd statement that when marching by the front he’s in the rear rank ‘near the left file’. When the company is formed correctly by SCOTT into two ranks the corporals are mixed in with rank & file and put in their proper spots by “slight transposings”. If there were an odd number of men it would be pretty simple at the same time we position corporals to yank out a gentlemen and place him on the left of the company. Of course this is just a theory but it gives me something to look for in photos at least and experiment with on CADD.

As to forming the company I repeat my earlier statement it should be formed as per SCOTT 1835. HARDEE 1855 doesn’t include instructions on forming the company – his manual wasn’t intended to replace SCOTT, it was a supplement for riflemen and light infantry – they would have presumably been forming the same way for 20 years at that point and didn’t need to include that section. GiILHAM is creating a manual for the volunteer and including things that the professional soldier already knows so he includes how to form the company (as per SCOTT) and mentions in his preface about the tactical portion: “ The whole will be found to be in strict conformity with the requirements of the United States service.” One problem of the computer age is it’s too easy to do a text search instead of reading cover to cover. When you read the full text in HARDEE the company has long since been formed in two ranks and he’s showing how to go from two to one and back; two to four and back, etc. I guarantee that when forming 60 strangers into company formation per paragraph 8 for the first time, jumping ahead to paragraph 359 and “supposed to be part of a column, right or left in front” is not the simplest way to go.

359. The company being formed into two ranks, in the manner indicated No. 8, school of the soldier, and supposed to make part of a column, right or left in front, when the instructor shall wish to form it into single rank, he will command:
1. In one rank, form company. 2. MARCH.
360. At the first command, the right guide will face to the right.
361. At the command march, the right guide will step off and march in the prolongation of the front rank.
and so on to the last file, which will be composed of the shortest corporal and the shortest man.

And the final thing, which is not theory but print – I haven’t seen every manual ever written, of course, but of the 20 or so I’ve read - United States, English & French, 1803-1868 they all count from the right whether counting by files, twos, fours, etc. GILHAM is no exception.