At High Tide Federal Campaigners

[Charles Heath]

Re: At High Tide Federal Campaigners

Out of curiosity, how many electrolytes do you calculate providing per man per day, for a summer event requiring exertion, like AHT?

Hank,

Years ago, buried deep in the now vaporized thread on the OTB Forum, modern electrolytes, such as powdered Gatorade, were determined to be "color and flavor" to encourage people to drink more water, whereas, sweet potatoes and dried peach halves were far and away better sources of the happy little micronutients. That is the long and the short of it. It's a psych thing.

It's a shame the huge electrolyte thread on the OTB Forum was lost in a crash about two years ago, because we beat this horse to death. I'll mention a few things here for the handful of folks who didn't read that wonderful thread, and there will be more to come in the campaigner adjunct AAR thread.

1. In the eight months prep time for the march, I have to commend both Jim Moffet and Rob Murray for their dedication to safety for the marchers on a variety of levels. To condense the usual 5,000 word essay into a smaller, bite size packing, especially for those with CADD...in the real army "accomplish the mission first, and then look out for the welfare of the men" was drilled into our heads. In reenacting, the opposite it true in a world where "safety first" is the mantra like most any industrial operation. Frankly, after languishing for a few years, the Western Brigade is in good hands, and will most likely be moving forward again.

2. The purpose of putting color and flavor into water is to encourage the participants to drink more water. No more, no less. We accomplished the same thing with weak tea at Vicksburg last year, where the temperatures were much higher, and at Camp Curtin and Chatham Manor with raspberry shrub, where the temperatures were not quite like Vicksburg, but warmer than last Friday at Gettysburg.

Yes, one can drink too much water, and that discussion has also been beaten to death.

"The soldier’s diet in the Civil War has been known as poor, and a number of illnesses and disorders have been associated with it. However, a nutritional analysis placed within the context of mid-nineteenth century American nutrition has been lacking. Such an approach makes clear the connection between illness and diet during the war for the average soldier and defines the importance of nutrition’s role in the war. It also provides a bridge from the American diet to the soldier diet, outlining correlations between the two and examining the influence of physicians, chemists, and health reformers on the Civil War diet." - M.B., 2005

Outside of Terre Lawson, Noah Briggs, you, and I, and maybe Claude Sinclair, there isn't much of any interest whatsoever in this subject, but I do find it fascinating.

I'm going to have some fun with this, so hang on:

Whereas John Billings stated the AOP Marching Ration was:

"... sixteen ounces of hardtack, twelve ounces of salt pork or twenty ounces of fresh meat, sugar, coffee, and salt. This was the August 1861 ration minus vegetables and vinegar." - M.B. 2005

Whereas, one can take the USDA recommended daily allowances, and then crank out the percentage of a ration to develop a table not unlike that on most modern food packages:

AoP Marching Ration as a Percentage of USDA RDA

Calories 143%
Protein (g) 218%
Carbohydrates (g) 118%
Fat-Total (g) 162%
Vitamin A (RE) 0%
Thiamin- B1 (mg) 343%
Riboflavin- B2 (mg) 187%
Niacin- B3 (mg) 384%
Vitamin B6 (mg) 255%
Vitamin B12 (mcg) 468%
Vitamin C (mcg) 0%
Vitamin D (mcg) 26%
Vitamin E (mg) 61%
Folate (mcg) 77%
Calcium (mcg) 27%
Iron (mg) 445%
Magnesium (mg) 239%
Phosphorus (mg) 478%
Potassium (mg) 116%
Sodium (mg) 396%
Zinc (mg) 388%

Source: Modified Table 7, M.B. 2005

There is actually a good table to use for sitting around camp and other one for marching in terms of caloric expenditure. For those needing the quick look up table for an ANV impression, you aren't left out. This is a 90-minute detour, but back in 2005 a VPI&SU masters degree candidate by the name of Matthew Brennan analyzed Iron Brigade rations versus Stonewall Brigade rations. (Believe me when I say I'm going to blend in his nutritional analysis when I update my Iron Brigade 1863 rations article.) Anyway, the title of his thesis is "The Civil War Diet," and Bill Davis, a name most of us will recognize, appears to have been the department chair at that time. The entire work is online:

Civil War Diet Masters Thesis

His work certainly plugs a hole in my research, and when I crank out this somewhat useful rations calculator (modern spreadsheet) in a couple of months, the nutritional aspects will be in a "just for fun" column way off the right side, and a footnote on the bottom.

If this is an important consideration for the health of the men when rations are supplied in hot weather, I'm curious what targets others are aiming for.

I aim for history, but generally fall short. In the case of the campaigner adjunct (event march) into the former Yingling farm from the Pennsylvania Monument (by the way, the bathrooms and frost free hydrant are now in working order) what the boys ate on Wednesday and Thursday are not our concern. The sad part is we have no idea what they were eating during the 48 hours prior to the campaigner adjunct aka event march, so that question is moot. That activity was from 11:30 a.m. to 4:30 p.m., and the rations weren't to be issued until after 7:00 p.m., but before the hours of darkness. As a result of Dane Utter missing a meal at the Antietam 2003 NPS LH, the entire hobby has been paralyzed at the thought of cooking pork after sunset.

We made some assumptions, since our guiding impression was the 1st Minn., and Wright left us with precisely what items they were issued on 30 Jun 63. The first assumption was the salt pork would either kill them or replenish salt lost on the march. They second was they'd toss away any more than 6-8 pieces of hardtack.

For myself, I try to provide a bare minimum of 4,000 mg sodium, 4,000 mg potassium and 400 mg magnesium. Another 1,000 mg of the first two is better. Seems to work for me, but I'm curious what's figured as an average sufficient electrolyte consumption for a large group of men.

Magnesium recommendation is 400, and the marching ration provides 955.54 mg per day or 239%. This is one for one with Hank's 400 mg preference.

Potassium recommendation is 3,500, and the marching ration provides 4,044.21 mg or 116%. This is nearly 1,000 mg less that Hank's preference, and barely over the minimum threshold..

Sodium recommendation is 2,400, and the marching ration provides 9,506.46 or 396%. This is close to 2x Hank's 5,000 mg preference.

Cool.

Did the officers calculate the daily electrolytes, discover they were inadequate, and recalculate with the Gatorade included, and if so, what were the figures? What do they consider a good target amount?

According to the label, 20 fluid ounces of Gatorade has:

Magnesium: 0 mg

Potassium: 75 mg

Sodium: 270 mg

That's about 8.43 gallons of Gatorade per man per day, based on potassium just to reach the level of marching rations. Somewhere in that old thread we also pulled up the "food values" (to use a term from a few generations ago) of switchel.

Neil,

You'd probably enjoy the 19th century food Yahoo Group/listserver, and I learn a great deal from it. This is primarily for civilian food discussions, but a good number of the folks actually try period receipts, and the resource (including both books and sources of supply) information is quite useful. It's a relatively quiet list:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/19centfood/

That mountain of salt cod sitting in Boston found its way to Ohio training camps as codfish gravy. I'm sure some wag thought it would be a nice treat for the inland boys.

[Hank Trent]

Re: At High Tide Federal Campaigners

AoP Marching Ration as a Percentage of USDA RDA

Vitamin A (RE) 0%
Vitamin C (mcg) 0%

That's pretty fascinating. And sure enough, scurvy was one nutritional issue that doctors battled. I had to go look up Vitamin A deficiency. Looks like night blindness and lowered ability to fight infections are the symptoms. It could be found in some foraged things like carrots, peaches, greens, etc.

Edited to add: a quick search shows that night blindness was a well-known complaint among sailors and sometimes soldiers on the march or in the spring, attributed sometimes to the bright light in the tropics or stress of military life or glare from the snow in winter. Haven't found Civil War specifics yet, but sounds like it would be a complaint that could be found.

I aim for history, but generally fall short.

Though I meant targets as in how many milligrams, rather than a more philosophical one, but I must admit I like your answer better; it's what I do as well. :D

According to the label, 20 fluid ounces of Gatorade has:

Magnesium: 0 mg

Potassium: 75 mg

Sodium: 270 mg

That's about 8.43 gallons of Gatorade per man per day, based on potassium just to reach the level of marching rations.

Which is why I get a little annoyed when reenactors insist on it for "safety" or "health" reasons, as if they're not so stupid as to endanger their health like those foolish hardcores who eat rotten meat and get lice and don't know what's good for them...

I never told anyone to drink extra water during the event, but after cooking up some salt pork for my surgeon and sharing it with the other private camping with us, can't recall which one said, "That salt pork sure is good, but it makes you want to drink a whole canteen full of water afterward." Ahem. That would be the 19th century way of saying, "Be sure to hydrate." :D

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Charles Heath]

Re: At High Tide Federal Campaigners

...quick search shows that night blindness was a well-known complaint among sailors and sometimes soldiers on the march or in the spring, attributed sometimes to the bright light in the tropics or stress of military life or glare from the snow in winter. Haven't found Civil War specifics yet, but sounds like it would be a complaint that could be found.

Hank,

Now that I've enrolled in Remedial Hyperlinking 099, and fixed the link in Brennan's thesis in that post, you can read the section on night blindness in cyberland, or eyeball it here:

My eyes would not last long: Night blindness

Night blindness results from a deficiency in vitamin A. Whereas the body stores vitamin C for a relatively short period, vitamin A stores become depleted only after one to two years in healthy adults. As such, the number of reported cases during the first year of the war was rather limited; ten by June 1862 in the Army of the Potomac and 136 in all Northern white troops. Like scurvy, those cases that did occur early in the war pointed to an insufficient home diet. Night blindness, too probably occurred more often than reported. Johnny Brendel had night blindness by mid September 1861; it is likely he was not the sole reported case for that month in the army.23

Although a number of physicians attributed the disorder to a poor diet, it was treated by some as a symptom of scurvy, such as the doctors in Lee’s army who told Robert Stiles it was a scorbutic condition. Possibly because of its connection to scurvy and lethargy as well as an improved diet at home for most soldiers, other surgeons believed it could be cured with furloughs.24

The most realistic option for improving vitamin A stores in the average soldier was the sweet potato. Though the vitamin also comes from eggs, milk, cheese, liver, kidney, and some fish oils, these were rarely available to most soldiers. Canned milk from the sutlers was often too expensive for the average soldier, and getting milk from cows was too infrequent; when rations declined, cows were put to better use than milking. Cheese was often putrid when purchased, and liver, kidney, and fish oil were not items the men could be expected to receive.25

Once cases of night blindness became more prevalent, a trend developed in the armies, in which the cases decreased in late fall and winter and increased again around March. From September 1863 to February 1864 the number of reported cases in the Army of the Potomac decreased by eighty-one percent. However, by July they shot up by 986 percent. This seasonal variation occurred with sweet potato harvesting season, which lasted usually from late October until May. That the number of cases reported began to increase prior to May could have been due to the army depleting the surrounding land of available sweet potatoes, a likely possibility by early 1864.26

The drop in number of cases of night blindness in Sherman’s army from July to December 1864 shows the effectiveness of foraging for the men. From July to August the number of cases rose from 216 to 293. However, after seizing Atlanta and during the March to the Sea, pork and sweet potatoes was the bill of fare for many of Sheman’s men. By December only two cases were reported, a ninety-nine percent drop.27

Foraging for the Army of Northern Virginia was limited by early 1863. In his correspondence with Seddon in March, Lee mentioned that any attempts yielded little success. By this time, Frank Paxton’s eyesight had been compromised for the past five months. The previous October, he explained to his wife why his letter had been cut short. “If I undertook to do the writing, my eyes would not last long.” Several months later he wrote, “I sometimes think if my health were good my eyes would give me not trouble.”28

21 Stiles, Marse Robert, 348.
22 Bollet, Civil War Medicine, 356.
23 NIH, MedlinePlus; Whitney, Nutrition, 358; MSHCW, 32-33, 149; Bollet, Civil War Medicine,357; Venner, Swamp Hogs, 19.
24 Bollet, Civil War Medicine, 356.
25 NIH, MedlinePlus.
26 MSHCW, 324-25, 492.
27 Ibid, 544-45.
28 Paxton, Frank “Bull” Paxton, 58, 74.

This could explain why men wanted the various dairy products when they could be had, and the urge for the offal or "5th Quarter." Conventional wisdom states the dog robbers got the innards, but at least once commissary officer wrote this:

"The brigade commissary should keep an account of the hides, hoofs, etc., of animals slaughtered, sending a report of the same to the division commissary. No part of the animal that is edible should be thrown away, given away, or wasted. There should be an understanding as to the proportion in which the ' ' fifth quarter" should be issued, say at 2 pounds for 1 of contract beef, and sold to officers accordingly. " - Bvt. Col. M. R. Morgan, Fort Leavenworth, KS, 25 Nov 1865,

This puts the liver, kidneys, etc. as going in a different direction from the enlisted folks, nonetheless, plenty of accounts exist of enlisted fellows getting the "5th Quarter" when they could. The fish oil situation is interesting. We know anchovy sauce is out there under a more familiar name, menhaden would choke a starving alley cat, and I'm not sure where cod liver oil as a patent medicine was at this time, however, those darn sardine cans found in camps may be a clue here, as would be the barrels and barrels of mackerel that show up on inventoried. Dried, salt cod is not likely to have a lot of oil. Salt, smoked, herring or "blind robins" were available here and there. Would the ingestion of sardines help ward off night blindness to some degree? Well, I haven't seen it mentioned in the immediate post-war journals where scurvy is being argued ad nauseum from 1865-1868, but those articles are interesting nevertheless. Other canned fish is showing up in 1864-1865, but I can't tell how far down it is going below maybe division hospital area. A heck of a lot of the non-regulation foods in official channels stop before they get down that far, too. Of course, there is always the sutler.

I find these hospital subsistence lists interesting, although this is a late war average from the post war publication "How to Feed an Army, page 100:"

Hospital purchases for 1,000 men one month:

6 tons of ice
145 pounds of crackers
363 pounds of cheese
102 cans of tomatoes
69 gallons of coal oil
26 gallons of rum
6 cans of pears
184 gallons of ale
9 cans of catsup
52 gallons of cider
726 pounds of butter
27 gallons of sirup [sic]
16 cans of peaches
23 barrels of apples
672 dozen eggs
2 boxes of oranges
350 pounds of poultry
2 boxes of lemons
156 gallons of milk (fresh)
2 boxes of raisins
60 pounds of corn starch
2 pounds of cinnamon
200 pounds of washing soda

The above is the average of purchases for 1,000 men at several general hospitals, during the month of April 1865.

...like those foolish hardcores who eat rotten meat and get lice and don't know what's good for them....

You know, just issue hard to find, heirloom, period variety, lice fully esconced, immersed, and infested, in blankets at just one or two events, and they hold it against you forever. By the way, I have a line on some vaccination resistant measles, consumption, and smallpox strains from our friends at the NIH, if you are interested in kicking up the next medical living history program a notch or two. Just kidding.

[RJSamp]

Re: At High Tide Federal Campaigners

Though I meant targets as in how many milligrams, rather than a more philosophical one, but I must admit I like your answer better; it's what I do as well.

Quote:
According to the label, 20 fluid ounces of Gatorade has:

Magnesium: 0 mg

Potassium: 75 mg

Sodium: 270 mg

That's about 8.43 gallons of Gatorade per man per day, based on potassium just to reach the level of marching rations.

Charles Heath

Which is why I get a little annoyed when reenactors insist on it for "safety" or "health" reasons, as if they're not so stupid as to endanger their health like those foolish hardcores who eat rotten meat and get lice and don't know what's good for them

Hank Trent

Your assumption that one would drink ONLY Gatorade for their daily nutritional requirement, and the fallacy of comparing ingesting food (a marching diet) vs liquids (Gatorade) for their daily nutritional requirements has not escaped the masses. At least the coloring/flavoring of the liquids to encourage consumption of the liquid and salts (as opposed to a gallon of water and a spoonful of salt for example) is mentioned by you, but then not mentioned in your summary. If it takes 8.43 gallons of Gatorade to get a daily dose of salt.....how many gallons of WATER does it take to get a daily dose of Salt? A river or three? If the flavor/Color of gatorade encourages me to drink a liter an hour.....and plain old water and three strips of bacon are about as appealing as sand after a three hour march and the teenager drinks little of the water/eats no bacon..... who is more in danger of dehydration when the march resumes 10 minutes later?

You should have compared drinking water and coffee only in 1863 versus Gatorade and water only in 2008.....or compared water + coffee + marching rations vs Gatorade + coffee + water + whatever the 2008 soldier ate...anything else is simply BS.

You two should know better......We do.

[Hank Trent]

Re: At High Tide Federal Campaigners

You two should know better......We do.

Who is "we"? It's certainly not "us." I think you might be referring to "them." :D

Bottom line: There's no reason to drink Gatorade (or do other modern things) during reenactments that attempt to replicate 1860s life, unless it's absolutely necessary for health. Drinking Gatorade isn't necessary for health, because the same ingredients are available in period food.

If you're arguing that Gatorade is "necessary" because participants will refuse to eat and drink enough period foods and liquids, that's a different hobby.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[nrandolph]

Re: At High Tide Federal Campaigners

If you can be in some sort of static camp scenario, switchell is a very pleasant and efficient hydrator. We, the cooks at AHT, fixed about 4-5 gallons for the staff and after working over a pretty hot fire in normal summer temps, I really didn't even get to the point where I felt thirsty. I like it with just a touch more ginger than the recipe calls for. It's a satisfying 19th century drink!

Charles, thanks for hooking me up with that 19th century food civilian board..some interesting discussions there.

Neil Randolph
1st WV

[Charles Heath]

Re: At High Tide Federal Campaigners

Neil,

Haymaker switchel and tasty shrub can be quite portable, and easy to prepare and dispense on the march; however, few will drink it with the sort of gusto required. Been there, done that. Several times over. The same goes with sweet potato consumption, but people really do seem to enjoy dried peaches. Mmmmm, good.

Meanwhile, I'm sitting here looking at 20 pounds of desiccated potatoes in Maryland from a supplier in North Carolina -- knowing they'll be hooked up with a mound of salt beef currently sitting in Iowa (originally intended for an event in Georgia) for an event in Missouri -- on a thread about some Minnesota and Ohio fellows' march in Pennsylvania. Gotta love this hobby.

Here's the 19th century food link again for those who may have missed it earlier:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/19centfood/

As an update to a previous subject, somewhere in the time between Marmaduke's Raid and After The Battle, I'll get the Mil Rat (thanks, Ron) listserver rolled out.

[1FDAAG]

Re: At High Tide Federal Campaigners

As I see the thread, balanced hydration with nutrition is the key, regardless of the specific amount of milligrams you ingest. Charles, the info is definately helpful and kudos for the water on the Friday march.) I know I ate heartily at every meal and drank more fluids that I care to think about. (Yes, I even supplemented my water with some Gatorade after the medical troops met with the Paramedics for a briefing.) Still lost a few pounds....;)

Case in point, the 13 yr. old that was evacuated by Paramedics (during the battle) stated to Rob and I that he had only ingested water, a slice of bread and apple butter that morning. (Who is responsible, him, his adult supervisor or his company commander? Not going to start that thread.....) He was a canteen runner and made numerous trips before collapsing. He was trying to recover under a shade tree when his condition worsened.

Fortunately, there were level headed folks who acted quickly, initiated triage and the paramedics were there within 2 minutes of being notified per our (1FD Medical & event) protocols. (Hats off the those folks!!!!) He did return the next day after overnighting it in the hospital and hydrating.

As with the other heat injuries, the key cause was a lack of nutrition, lack of proper hydration before the battles and lack of preparation before the event started. I live in AZ and with little to no humidity, I knew I'd suffer if I didn't plan ahead. Grew up in the South but it is tough just coming back East for an event or two in the summer.

Keep it real, keep it safe....:)

[ajroscoe]

At Hight Tide DVD

Has anyone else heard about the DVD or actually received it? I know it said coming in Fall 2008, but as the season is ending shortly, I was kind of hoping to eventually. Thanks!

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: At Hight Tide DVD

Has anyone else heard about the DVD or actually received it? I know it said coming in Fall 2008, but as the season is ending shortly, I was kind of hoping to eventually. Thanks!

I understand asking the forum, but you may want to direct your questions directly to Wide-Awake Films, and post the results of your contact: http://www.civilwargoods.com/contact.asp

Wide Awake Films
511 Delaware
Third Floor
Kansas City, MO 64105

Phone:
Toll Free: 888-528-2791
Local: 816-872-3456

Email:
orders@civilwargoods.com

Website:
WideAwakeFilms.com

Paul B.

[hta1970]

Re: At Hight Tide DVD

I placed my order last month and was told that it should be out soon. I think before Christmas was mentioned...

Looking forward to seeing it myself...

[Parault]

Re: At Hight Tide DVD

Deleted.........................

[hta1970]

Re: At Hight Tide DVD

For an update, my DVD arrived today. Looks like it is about 1 hour long.

[ajroscoe]

Re: At High Tide Federal Campaigners

Mine arrived today, but when I put it in tonight when I got home from work, I found that there was no information on it. I tried it in my dvd player, playstation 2, and my computer to no avail. I will most certainly be calling the gentlemen at Wide Awake Films tomorrow!

[jake.koch]

Re: At High Tide Federal Campaigners

I thought someone might find this interesting, I saved a couple pieces of the salt pork issued at this event and took them home and put them in my freezer and promptly forgot about them. Going through some stuff the other day I found the bag of salt pork, interesting fact is that the two pieces had not frozen yet so there yet survives a salt pork ration.