Should our clothes all fit?

[Thomas Alleman]

Now that we have shown what size we are, would all our clothes fit and should they? Mine are some to big, some snug, and my frock coat fits just right. What says you?

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Should our clothes all fit?

Hallo!

Not sure where you want to go on that one?

A review through the SEARCH feature would pull up a number of discussions on the Period concept of size and sizings, and the issuance concept of items being issued without regard to size in a wear as is, trade for a better size, or self - tailor or pay for tailoring for a better "fit."

Not picking on your question, just looking where to answer from...

Curt

[KarinTimour]

Re: Should our clothes all fit?

Stuff made by your family from home should fit you well -- shirts, socks, gloves, nightcaps, mittens. Materials in our time period were expensive, labor was cheap, so most households would have made your clothing to be big enough but not have wasted materials making them too big -- unless that was the "fit" you prefered. For example, some men perfer their drawers fairly loose fitting.

However, socks, shirts, drawers or other uniform pieces issued by the Army, well, try it on and swap around if you can find someone willing to swap for a closer fit.

Sincerely,
Karin Timour
Period Knitting -- Socks, Sleeping Hats, Balaclavas
Atlantic Guard Soldiers' Aid Society
Email: Ktimour@aol.com

[ElizabethClark]

Re: Should our clothes all fit?

One added thought to Karin's remarks: homemade things should fit well *if the person from home was any good at making things.* If a soldier's little sister, just learning to size things well, sends things a bit wonky... well, that's love. :) (Not an excuse to run about in really poorly fitted things, though.)

[tomarch]

Re: Should our clothes all fit?

I believe Josh Bilings delt with this in his chapter on new recruits in his book "Hardtack and Coffee" also includes a nice Chas. Reed sketch of fresh fish w/ their first "gov't suits":)

[cprljohnivey]

Re: Should our clothes all fit?

Karin and Elizabeth,

“Um, yeah, I'm gunna have to go ahead and… disagree with you there…” I don't believe that ALL clothing sent from home should fit. I think this all depends on from where and when the clothing was sent. For instance... if somewhat early in the war but after campaigning season started... the soldiers often lost much weight as their bodies adjusted to army life. Wouldn't clothing sent from home be sized to their bodies before they left? Also, some people lost more weight in the army than others. Think fat city boy vs trim farm boy. I guess it all boils down to the good ol’ “depends on what unit at what time in the war impression guidelines” thang. Just my $.02 worth.

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Should our clothes all fit?

I think you have to go with period accounts and photographs, primarily. Remembrances can be more subject to bias of one sort or another, but are better than supposition.

Here's a good shot of some Federals, though seated, making it harder to see how their clothing fits:



Here is a good candid shot of a group of federals working on a corduroy road. If you download the hi res version from the LoC site, you can see a lot of examples of enlisted men and how their issue clothing fits... or doesn't!


Here are some engineers:

[clconboy]

Re: Should our clothes all fit?

pg 204 of "Hard Tack and Coffee" has a great description of the issuance of clothing as well as a sketch of three privates wearing there new clothing.

One is wearing a Frock (with epaulets??) that is to small, and his trousers are to long...The second is wearing a blouse that is huge, and the trousers are to small..and the third private has a overcoat that dwarfs him...

if it fit it, didn't fit, they sent it to the company tailor or made exchanges for a better fit.

i know that my blouse's arms shrank and come up a little short...so it gives a great impression on the haphazard issuance of clothing....

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Should our clothes all fit?

Halllo!

"if it fit it, didn't fit, they sent it to the company tailor or made exchanges for a better fit."

IMHO, that is a dangerous universal statement that can read if clothing did not fit, it was sent to the "company tailor" or made "exchanges" for a better fit.
That would seem to make a claim that there universally was such a function or position as "company tailor" or that alternatives to trades amongst soldiers were always possible?

At any rate, IMHO, it leaves out the very common making do with what was issued as best as one could and the surviving photographic record indicates that quite often clothing (uniforms) appears to have the general form and "fit" as intended or just the way it happened to "wear," "hang," or "look" on the different body shapes and sizes beyond the Period "ideal" (even for more "fitted/tailored" garments like the Federal dress coat versus the fatigue blouse...).

Curt

[KarinTimour]

Re: Should our clothes all fit?

Dear Brad:

You wrote:
<< I don't believe that ALL clothing sent from home should fit. I think this all depends on from where and when the clothing was sent. For instance... if somewhat early in the war but after campaigning season started... the soldiers often lost much weight as their bodies adjusted to army life. Wouldn't clothing sent from home be sized to their bodies before they left? Also, some people lost more weight in the army than others. Think fat city boy vs trim farm boy. >>

Ok, good point -- what was that about "never say 'always' or 'never?' " I agree with you with regard to drawers, shirts, trousers, and vests. I don't know how much you'd have to lose before it would make a difference in how your hat fit. But you'd have to lose quite a bit of weight before your hands and feet would significantly change size -- to the point that your socks and gloves didn't fit any more.

My two cents,
Karin Timour
Period Knitting -- Socks, Sleeping Hats, Balaclavas
Atlantic Guard Soldiers' Aid Society
Email: Ktimour@aol.com

[JimConley]

Re: Should our clothes all fit?

I think that Karin, Curt, and John have all brought up good points. And, speaking in a general sense, I would say yes our clothes should fit, it just depends on what you're wearing as to how well.

Something made at home or a citizen's article brought to the ranks would have fit the individual well. And you must keep in mind that their idea of what "fit" differs from ours greatly. Also, though Civil War military clothing was arguably not as elaborate as previous American military styles, the same sort of "dash" did apply to fit, where, as I have always interpreted, a snug fitting upper garment that clasps the waist and exaggerates the breast.

Now, it does depend. Since military issue clothing was made to standard sizes and scales, that would explain why not every soldier had something that he felt fit him well. However, I don't think that warrants reason for the majority of re-enactors to intentionally wear clothing that is a size or two too big because it might be more comfortable or familiar in fit. And it also depends on what type of garment you are wearing in the field. A fatigue blouse, for example, was not intended to have the same snug fit as a shell jacket or uniform coat.

Also, if you look at records from the US Quartermaster you will note the standard sizes of breast and waist measurements. Chris Daley has the charts listed on his website here: http://www.cjdaley.com/issuesizes.htm. You will see that a US uniform coat per regulation used a 4 inch drop from breast to waist and fatigue blouses used a 10, 11, 12, and 13 inch drop from breast to skirt width.

Now we do have to compensate for the fact that the average man these days is bigger than the average soldier all around. I personally have to compensate because I am by no means an average size with a 10 inch drop from my chest to waist. So, if I were to buy US uniform coat made to period standards, I'd have an excess of 6 inches around my waist, which I know was not how they were intended to fit. And you must also keep in mind that though instances off ill-fitting clothing can be seen in photographs or referenced on paper, we are striving to achieve that "average" look of the soldier. And something tells me that if time travel were possible and we could watch a column of soldiers march by that we wouldn't note many of them wearing coats and trousers that swallowed them.

Lastly, as a personal rule of thumb, I'll add this: since just about 99.5% of reproduction clothing is cut on modern slope-shoulder patterns, I always order a size or so smaller than my measurements because reproductions cut in this manner more than compensate for your actual measurements. Now, I can see this being easily mis-interpreted, so I'll clarify before this goes where it is not intended. Those out there that are making the more authentic reproductions and that are actually taking patterns from original garments have to compensate for the market, i.e. larger guys. To do that, they have to scale their patterns up to modern measurements and when that is done, it is largely done using modern techniques for pattern-making and though the sizes might be correctly scaled, the pattern changes upon expanding it to compensate. Thus, when you order a coat that was copied from an original, you're getting a modern cut of an original garment using techniques that had not been implemented yet. And to illustrate that, there have been some good reprinted tailor's guides from the 19th century in more recent years that explain the differences.

Oh, and to add to John's point about photographs, anyone can get access to over 1,100 original photographs through the Library of Congress, ONLINE EVEN! AND IT'S FREE!http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/cwphtml/cwphome.html. The easisest way to find out how you should look in the field is to look at original photos. Outside of the LoC, there are a lot of collector's sites that have original images and I see some good ones pop up on the boards too. Dane Utter has a link to over 250 Confederate images in his signature line: http://community.webshots.com/user/Confederates.

[cprljohnivey]

Re: Should our clothes all fit?

Karin,

I believe you are right about socks, gloves, hat, etc... Do you think scarves need to be sized? :wink_smil

[D F Smith Historic]

Re: Should our clothes all fit?

Hi All,

If I may add something here.

The best place to fond pics of soldiers with clothing that varies in size ( Ala
"Size 1 Man in a size 4 suit".)

It may be better to track down information and pictures of the soldier when they first enlisted, and were more likely to have the problem of having clothes that fit. Before being modifyed or taken in.

Hard Tack & Coffee , Life of Billy Yank, as well as paintings and illustrations by trained newspaper artists ( Like W. Homer) catch this very well. Most immages of the soldier at the front or of units that have been in the filed a while, would, and did have a chance to modify clothing to fit better.


Just for a lark , here is a period soldier written poem from Doug McCristian book on "The Army in the West 1870 (CW Clothing is still issued then) -1880" P38.

Ode to a Pair of Tight Breeches

Written maliciously and with direct animosity against No.1's and a sparsityof cloth, and directed personally against those unmentionables, but preceded with a sigh!

Ah, life is short, and so art thou,
But yet I'll wear thee;
I'll storm thee, Breech, I'll do it now;
I'll get thee on , but Mars tell how
Unless I tear thee?

What nimble fingers stitched thy seams,
That seem still shrinking?
What jaunty shearess cut that seat,
That needs extention near two feet
Or more, I'm thinking?

What Shylock gave his bond due sealed
To fitting make thee
To warriors limbs in camp or field?
Appropriate fact, "Thoul't never yeld
An inch" - De'il take thee!

Shades of old hats and carpet rags,
Grasp my propellers;
Ghosts of old coats and gunny bags,
Of all the human garb the tags ( including mummies),
Ye're here, poor fellows.



All the best

Don S

[PAUL BARNHART]

Re: Should our clothes all fit?

You’re in the military and you want your clothes to fit...I think that is an oxy-moron...

The recruits were outfitted pretty much like they are now days.. if you wore a common size they had uniforms that fit. Early militias most likely had the best fit, parade uniforms and time to adjust. I would believe that the eastern side had a lot of time to work out these issues. And then again the eastern side had more shipments of goods and supplies. The western side would not have had as much time nor the selection of sizes.

Ok so now we are at war, spring 1862 the train arrives with new uniforms-who gets 'em..most likely the pickings would be by rank. So, as a lowlife, odds are you got what was in the "norm" of the sizes. Anybody outside of the "norm" would not have well fitting clothing. It really didn't matter - those folks were usually on the work details anyway. So the ranking enlisted had great fitting uniforms. The lower you go on the Rank the less the clothes fit. The firewood and the constant chores would have really taken its toll on the quality of fit anyway. So if you trashed one pair of pants you could get another..but what size would those be…? Has anyone done a study if the German companies were any bigger than the Irish? Did the quartermaster order specific sizes or were they "issued" a statistical assortment.

Inspections ( on the other hand ), odds are, there were competitions for inspections and "camp" so the company would work towards - getting odd fitting uniforms to be acceptable to the company commander to score more points. So if one was in a long camp stay with supplies that person would be better uniformed. The companies also had more drills and inspections. Those in the field for longer periods of time would not have nearly as nice of a uniform. The commanders also would have understood that the train did not carry uniforms or those things needed ( i.e. not enough canteens, coats but not enough pants)

Thanks for reading.

[KarinTimour]

Re: Should our clothes all fit?

Dear Brad:

Nah, scarves go by preference and secret ingredients.

Thick, thin, long, short, long enough to barely stuff under your collar or longer than the Officer of the Day's sash. There's someone who thinks that each of these is the cat's meow of scarves.

I've seen Dads presented with thin, twisted little bitty scarves filled with holes and dropped stitches who gravely wrap that litle bit of wool around their necks and are warmer than the character who hacked a four by seven foot chunk off a federal blanket and has wound himself into a mummy's head.

Just my two cents......

Karin Timour
Period Knitting -- Socks, Sleeping Hats, Balaclavas
Atlantic Guard Soldiers' Aid Society
Email: Ktimour@aol.com