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**Dan Wambaugh** · 01-23-2008, 09:46 AM

Re: Provisional Supply Company?

Johnny,

This subject has been discussed ad nauseum every six months or so for the last twenty years. It basically boils down to if you want a product that resembles the original you are going to have to pay for the authentic materials, and the hourly wage that it takes to make hand crafted products.

If you have any ideas on how I can improve my production capacity, and build a sack coat in in half the time so you all can save some money, I'm all ears. Believe me when I say that the majority of us get paid very poorly for our skilled labor in comparison to other fields, and we only do this because we love our work. When that love leaves us, we stop making things.

The Wal Mart mentality does not work when it comes to authentically hand crafted goods. There is no "savings in bulk", there are no Chinese laborers willing to work for ten cents a day to make you a cartridge box, the authentically produced goods offered by the vendors on this site are all hand crafted in America, mostly by folks who are VERY lucky to pull in $30,000 a year doing this. There are no shortcuts to authentic gear, and those that think there are will invariably end up with an overpriced costume.

Best,

**john duffer** · 01-23-2008, 09:58 AM

Re: Can we have our cake and eat it too?

"Believe me when I say that the majority of us get paid very poorly for our skilled labor in comparison to other fields"

Actually I'm amazed at the prices of quality goods. Go into a store like LEVY'S here in Nashville with $400 for an off the rack sports coat and you'll get laughed out of the store.

**mslaird** · 01-23-2008, 10:07 AM

Re: Can we have our cake and eat it too?

Another good discussion post Mr. Lloyd,

I don't believe that it hurts to see something like this every now and again. It keeps the question fresh in people's minds and it provides for fresh perspective.

I do agree that there are many items of kit that it is very difficult to get around paying the higher prices for. Custom uniforms, leather goods, shoes, etc. The people that produce these items not only put the time into making them but they also put considerable amounts of time in research and in perfecting the ability to produce the items that we need.

That being said, there are numerous ways to cut some costs for the reenactor but they require a large amount of foot work and detective work to determine what to buy and who that item can be purchased from. There are some of the Approved Vendors that offer items that are quite reasonable in price. Wambaugh and White with thier package deals is a good example of this. Also, the various folks that offer kits at a fraction of the cost are a good way to cut cost on uniform items. It does, however, require a bit of time and frustration investment to delve into the arts of garment production if a person is very new to that aspect of our hobby.

**CJDaley** · 01-23-2008, 10:21 AM

Re: Provisional Supply Company?

Some examples from my personal/business past...

1) My sack coats remained the same price from 1997-2007 ($180), meanwhile a gallon of gas in the same time period went from $1.10 per gallon to $3.14 per gallon. By the same inflation standard my sack coats should now be about $550.00 each.

2) Kersey in about the same time period (1996-2007) has gone from $21 per yard to $39 per yard, yet my trowser prices stayed the same.

The last 12 months has seen a record number of small business people in this hobby alter their businesses. I know of AC Vendors and "other vendors" who've either gone out of business or decide to get a second (or primary) job. As one of the recently 'altered' businesses, I don't see this trend reversing.

It's not just the tailors, seamstresses, knitters and leatherworkers suffering. I know a few of the 'walmart' style sutlers are also dealing with inflated prices of imported items. Not only is the dollar bad, but trouble in Pakistan is raising prices as well. Think this doesn't effect you? Trying buying buttons, buckles, bayonets, muskets, caps or hardware in 2008 and see what the prices look like.

Look, in the end, Dan is right, this conversation has been dredged up every few months to the point of frustration. If anyone wants to build a better mouse trap, I encourage you to try. I'm more than happy to talk over the phone with anyone wishing to start up a new business, I'll share my suppliers, my contacts and my experience with you.

In the end the old saying still stands. Price, quality or delivery time. Pick one.

**LibertyHallVols** · 01-23-2008, 10:30 AM

Re: Can we have our cake and eat it too?

One thing to keep in mind is that, in the 1860's labor was cheap and materials were expensive. So, extensive hand-sewing on a garment did not create a cost barrier for the customer (or a profit barrier for the businessman).

Today, the reverse is true... at least in the USA. So, unless you want to buy Paki-made goods, you will have to pay more.

So, vendors don't get to have their cake and eat it too. The laws of supply and demaind affect vendors, too. In another thread, Chris Daley said it takes him a week to make a Federal enlisted frock. Let's assume that a vendor (let's call him Charlie Seriwambaleyhaninkela) spends about 4 hours per day actually working on the coat (the remainder of the day spend dealing with customers, correspondence, hiring a new comptroller for his new international division... stuff like that). That's 20 hours labor in the coat... a bogus number, I know, but let's roll with it. At $10/hour, that's $200 in labor, plus materials (75/yard for broadcloth, 6/yard for lining, a bakers dozen buttons, trim, batting, interfacing, thread).

Now, after all that, if he charges $10/hour and sews for 40 hours per week... that's an income of about $20,000. WOW!!! SIGN ME UP!!!! ...Oh, but wait, then there's the AC Vendor fee, Sutler Fees at events, shipping, travel, phone, store, website...

What if Charlie Seriwambaleyhaninkela has a family and wants to make $40K or $60K per year? Can he charge $600 or $800 for the same frock coat? As the price increases, the market for the product shrinks and Charlie Seriwambaleyhaninkela sells fewer frock coats. At some point he starts to lose income because of the higher price.

So...
Can you have your cake and eat it, too?

YES!!! Learn to sew. Learn gunsmithing. Learn to work with leather. Anything you make yourself you get for the price of materials. Labor is FREE!!!

That's the bottom line, folks, as far as I see it. This is a hobby, just like golfing, hot rods, or collecting lunch boxes. In every hobby, there are those that dabble and there are the those that dive waaaaaaaay down into the details. If you like hot rods and don't want to spend a lot of money, then you fix up a car in your garage by yourself. Maybe you find used parts. You "swap skills" with your buddies (I can do motors, my buddy does electrical). Those with an excess of cash and not a lot of free time just pay for the stuff to be done... and, guess what! They pay A LOT for the labor!!!

Right now, I'm sewing a jacket for a buddy of mine. Why? Because he wants a jacket and I want an officers haversack. Guess who's makin' the haversack?

Got no money and ya got no time? Troll for used gear.

This is life, folks.

PS - Chis, usually you get to pick two... If I want "Quality-Fast", then I have cannot control the price (aka - More $$$$$$). If I want "Quality-Cheap(er)", then I have to wait longer. If I want "Cheap-Now", then I get a piece of crap. ;)

**Johnny Lloyd** · 01-23-2008, 10:31 AM

Re: Can we have our cake and eat it too?

"It basically boils down to if you want a product that resembles the original you are going to have to pay for the authentic materials, and the hourly wage that it takes to make hand crafted products. -Dan Wambaugh"

Good comment, sir. Perhaps it needs to be said sometimes after a good while of not hearing it. ;)

Basically, I see the discussion as a debate between 2 sides:

'You have (and should be willing to) pay for quality when an item is needed for a particular impression..."

Versus-

'costs (wherever they may be: gear, transportational logistics, etc.) are actually preventing those with the willingness to improve their impressions from doing so'

Caveat:

All group-perceived "lame" excuses are excluded from the each side of the discussion.

(See also: "Wah... sour grapes on those authentics... it's too expensive so I don't wanna buy it at all." Whereas the right attitude would be: "I don't have the money now, but I know what I need and am saving money/trolling to find that item."
See also: "Hey, it must be good quality, solely based on it being high priced" and "quality always has to be astronomically priced")

Wow.. what a dilemma... but it affects the hobby seriously nonetheless. :p

-Johnny Lloyd

**Milliron** · 01-23-2008, 10:38 AM

Re: Can we have our cake and eat it too?

I don't get the impression that Johnny was suggesting that vendors lower their prices necessarily. Personally, I think prices are very low for what you receive. Consider the work that goes into an enlisted man's frock coat and $400-500 doesn't seem that bad.

I think the cost of participating in the hobby is what it is. It is actually a relatively inexpensive hobby compared to others (compare firearms, photography or boating for example). If you want to get involved, invest $1500 or so in a quality Federal impression. Heck, an entry-level trap gun costs that. You will be welcome at 75% of authentic events and 100% of inauthentic events. If you don't want to make that leap, a whole lot of people have extra gear to loan so you can get your feet wet.

Inasmuch as whether it's "for everybody"; not necessarily. It isn't for you unless you are willing to make the investment, pretty much like any other hobby. Usually, these kinds of lamentations are more a function of want versus need, e.g. "I have a good Federal impression, but I really want to do this cool event as Confederate, which requires X impression. Gosh, gear is expensive." You can participate in the hobby all you want, up to a certain point, then you need to make an added investment. Welcome to the nature of all hobbies. It would be like saying: "I really like shooting my .45 at the range, but I would like to start competing in matches. Wow, competition .45 pistols run about $3000, boy, this hobby is expensive." No, it merely defines your level of involvement.

I think the conflict derives from those inauthentic makers who promise authentic goods at low, low prices. Sure that Paki bayonet is $50, but see what happens when you put up your shelter tent with it. The uninitiated get the idea that the low price point is really where the cost should be and that authentic makers are inflating their prices. The truth is that far more often than not you are just getting substandard gear that has no place on the field. IMHO, if the true cost of the hobby keeps the dilettantes off the field, so much the better. If your concern is how to bring new people aboard without requiring that they make a substantial financial commitment, that is a different topic, and a good one. The answer is not, in my opinion, asking vendors to lower their already relatively low prices.

**paulcalloway** · 01-23-2008, 10:42 AM

Re: Can we have our cake and eat it too?

A few years ago there were hundreds of hobbiests looking to upgrade from mainstream kits to authentic kits. It was the golden age of authentic reproduction in the hobby, we were witness to it right here on the AC, and quite a number of good suppliers did well in this period.

Our Bully Buys alone generated thousands of dollars in sales... they were huge.

That time has come and gone like a {insert bad analogy}. Those very same suppliers probably find their chief competition in our WTS folder where former hobbiests are selling top quality gear for a song.

I agree with the precept that Ken Friedman put forth that authenticity should be affordable - and it is, as long as you don't mind wearing used. What I have a problem with is the idea that authenticity can be approximated through shortcuts. I haven't heard Ken say that, but if the Pakistani rumors and the fishing line rumors have truth, then its clear that shortcuts are being taken. Which may be fine with mainstream America but it's not something we'll ever condone here.

**Johnny Lloyd** · 01-23-2008, 10:47 AM

Re: Can we have our cake and eat it too?

"I don't get the impression that Johnny was suggesting that vendors lower their prices necessarily. -Bob Muehleisen"

Precisely... thanks for the clarification.

Gents... please ... Let's keep this civil discourse and from being a "vendor-gauge" and keep it to totally open, "everyones-opinion-matters-if you-truly-care-about our hobby and wonder about this stuff" debate. I know it is an issue that affects us all at one time or another as a consumer/vendor. As those that care because this is something we love to do, working together is the best solution, I feel.

Good will flows all ways. Especially in this hobby... it is one of our strengths as a group. :wink_smil

Again for the record, quality costs price, yep... but there are ways we can mitigate these costs on both vendor/consumer... group buys, what John Wickett said above about learning to make goods, trolling for used quality gear, etc.

Paul, John- My feelings exactly... good statement above.

Thanks to all- Johnny Lloyd

PS- On the "vendor-gauge" above statement clarification... Seen it before here, haven't we? I didn't like it then either. Not productive...

**BishopLynch** · 01-23-2008, 10:56 AM

Re: Can we have our cake and eat it too?

We can go back and forth with this question time and time again, but I believe the bottom line is this: If you want quality you are going to have to pay a price. How does the old saying go? Quality isn't cheap and cheap isn't quality.

I think much of this mentality comes from our modern age where pretty much everything is instantaneous. Our lives move so fast that anything we have to wait for, or save for we look at as a hinderance. Look how fast everything has become, email, cell phones, microwave, movies, internet, internet shopping, banking, &c &c. We have instant gratification with so many things that we come to expect it all the time with everything, including reenacting. For goodness sake, we are trying to portray the 19th century which moved at a MUCH slower pace. You want to be authentic dont you? Well, people of that time period realized that good things took time and if time is money then good things take money too.

Now, I'm not advocating being a farb, but I firmly believe that if you want to accurately portray life in the mid-19th century then you must be aware that you will have to pay a price. Like Mr. Wambaugh said, we cant expect a Walmart-like service with authentic gear. Also, as Mr. Wambaugh pointed out, these vendors do this for love of the hobby/history, not to become rich. People have to understand that reenacting is just a hobby NOT REAL LIFE! Real life to all of us, including the vendors, is high taxes, high gas prices, inflation, caring for our family, mortgages, various monthly bills, emergencies that may come up. I could go on and on. These vendors need to make it in real life too just like you and me, and if they are generous enough to take time out of their busy lives to provide us with, not just any goods, but quality goods that take lots of time and effort to produce, then we shouldnt cry out that all of their gear is too expensive.

It took me 5 years of saving and lots of waiting to finally complete just my Confederate kit. I understood though that if I wanted to be correct, then that was the only way to do it. Im sure many a reenactor over the years here has come to that realization. It is the only way. The vendors don't force you to buy their gear. So if you can afford their goods, then buy them, if you can't, then borrow gear until you can save up to buy your own or just dont do it at all or be a farb. Its that simple.

**LibertyHallVols** · 01-23-2008, 11:01 AM

Re: Can we have our cake and eat it too?

Originally posted by Milliron View Post

I think the cost of participating in the hobby is what it is. It is actually a relatively inexpensive hobby compared to others (compare firearms, photography or boating for example). If you want to get involved, invest $1500 or so in a quality Federal impression. Heck, an entry-level trap gun costs that. You will be welcome at 75% of authentic events and 100% of inauthentic events. If you don't want to make that leap, a whole lot of people have extra gear to loan so you can get your feet wet.

Good points, Bob! For the most dedicated "authenticists" out there, I would argue that prices/costs are kinda level across different hobbies.

If a guy with top-end gear, well-maintained, who had multiple impressions (US, CS, maybe an officers kit and a couple extra jackets... typical gear whore kind of stuff) decided to switch hobbies, I think he'd be able to sell off his gear and jump right into the "deep end" of most other hobbies. Several jackets at 200-500 each. Several trousers at half that. A couple muskets at 500-1000 each. An original sword. Leathers. Knapsacks. ...I'd bet it could easily add up to $4000-$8000.

Cycling - Think about the cost of a good road bike, mountain bike, shoes, helmet and gear.

Gun Collecting - A WW2 Garand, all original and correct will set you back $2000 - $6000, depending on year, condition, and mfr. A WW2 1911A1, all correct and original will cost about the same. We all know what Civil War muskets cost, right?

Computers... Hunting... Golf...

A few years ago, I was pondering getting out of the hobby. I realized that my investment in this hobby could easily get me a head start in some other hobby... as you can tell I was pondering WW2 US arms. :wink_smil Thinking about it this way puts things into perspective.

At the end of the day, the fact that we can all find time and money to participate is a testament to how darned good we all have it. How many people had "hobbies" a hundred years ago that consumed the time and money we sink into this one? If you didn't do this hobby, is your alternative going to be "doing nothing"... just sittin' at home and watching sports on TV?

If you're reading this, then I doubt it.

You'd leave this hobby and take those weekends and go to air shows, gun shows, museums, or auctions... you collect something, visit places, or travel... its in our blood. Just admit it.

I, for one, refuse to admit it... Why? Because admitting you have a problem is the first step toward the cure... and my "problem" is fun! :tounge_sm

So... can we all quit bitchin' about the cost of gear and talk about events, first person, who makes the best repro crotch wrap, or some other fun topic? :wink_smil

Thanks!

**Craig L Barry** · 01-23-2008, 11:03 AM

Re: Can we have our cake and eat it too?

Who knew a vendor like Provisional Supply Company would end up being such a lightning rod for discussion here of all places...count me among those who "didn't see that coming." The general premise of the discussion here is wrong as it assumes authentic (wrong word as it means "of the time period"), so let's instead say "historically accurate" reproductions are somehow being held hostage by high prices. Prices are merely the byproducts (as Mr Daley puts it) of the cost of time and materials.

Now, if the materials being used are the same grade (yet to be determined) then the only question is the cost of the labor component. If the boys at EJT like Bill Lomas and Ross Lamoreaux aren't getting rich making excellent cartridge boxes and shirts from top notch materials, then it is safe to assume a new pricing model was achieved from the labor component. This can only be manipulated that one other way...If the three partners of Provisional Supply Company are not themselves performing the labor, which the statements being made by them are not clear to me on that point, then that is where the cost difference has to be. Is this an off shore sewing/manufacturing operation?

If so, and if these products compare favorably with domestically produced goods by the hobby's finest craftsmen, the the question becomes are we ready to take that leap? On this topic count me with the folks from Missoura, and "show me"...I am reserving judgment until I actually have the goods in hand.

**Johnny Lloyd** · 01-23-2008, 11:08 AM

Re: Can we have our cake and eat it too?

"So... can we all quit bitchin' about the cost of gear and talk about events, first person, who makes the best repro crotch wrap, or some other fun topic?- John Wickett"

LOL... HA! :D;)

Putting it bluntly, but... you are correct sir.

That's my hope in the long run for debates. But you know these questions keep a-naggin' our collective brains...

-Johnny Lloyd

**Cfarrell** · 01-23-2008, 11:09 AM

Re: Can we have our cake and eat it too?

Why are we all trying to fix a system that isn't broken!!! Seems like we are trying to re-invent the wheel here! Its simple, need an item take a look at the vendors available. Find what you want, place the order, wait, get the item and enjoy! If the item isn't in your price range...Childs has patterns and fabric! Pick up a needle! Can't sew...find a pard that can (he'll give you a decent deal or he ain't no pard!) Can't find a pard that can sew...look on the AC buy/sale forum!!! Now how hard is that!!!

Regards,

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