Can we have our cake and eat it too?

[BishopLynch]

Re: Can we have our cake and eat it too?

"So... can we all quit bitchin' about the cost of gear and talk about events, first person, who makes the best repro crotch wrap, or some other fun topic?- John Wickett"

Exactly....I do enough debating in real life, this is my lesiure time. Lets get back to the fun!

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Can we have our cake and eat it too?

You know,

It is nice to know we have a place to talk issues out with other likeminded individuals that know to what we refer... :)

Good debate -Johnny

[btfire]

Re: Can we have our cake and eat it too?

From a person learning to sew...
I see the cost of accurate gear and sometimes it causes me a lot of sticker shock. I am slowly obtaining the gear I need through second hand purchases and by making it from scratch. I work in the public sector with a wife and three kids which keeps me from spending a lot of money. The gear I have is not the greatest, but I am improving.
Perhaps a way for people like me to get better gear is in not only learning to make it myself, but find people making items I am not and work out swaps. Let us say, Joe Shoeman learns to make accurate brogans. He spent considerable time and energy making the said shoe. He enjoys it enough to make more but he cannot upgrade his coat. I step in and make him a coat in a trade for his brogans. Stan the Hat man also gets in on the trading and makes us both accurate headgear in which we make our product and swap it out. In some instances, one person will spend more than the other, but in the long run these monetarily challenged people get good gear at a fraction of the cost.
My sewing is still in it's infancy. Practice is making me better and I do not think it will be long before I can go out and spend money on accurate materials to produce a good coat/trouser/shirt. Now that I can make a decent buttonhole, I feel confident in my ability to make this happen.

[Abrams]

Re: Can we have our cake and eat it too?

From a new guy's perspective:

Every hobby I have ever gotten into cost me a couple grand in the end. Snow skiing. Whitewater canoeing. Building custom modded computers. Dad took up fishing, and spent 10K on a bass boat (thats what he admits, I think it cost more, but he does not want mom to know the true price), and another grand or so in gear. This hobby is on the cheap side of modern hobbies for entry level, and only a moderately expensive hobby in the long run. As I see it at this time... (new guy, remember?)

C'mon, the cost of this hobby is not a hinderance to entry, in my opinion.

The prices have not been the hinderance to me, its the lead times I find a killer to a new guy. I understand why it takes long to produce quality hand made authentic goods. I am not deriding the makers of quality for being slow. I just did not realize it would take so long to build a quality, authentic impression.

So I decided to start doing this in mid-2007, and wanted go to an event in April 2008, (Shiloh). Quite frankly, to do it right, thats does not seem enough lead time to assemble the needed gear. (if I truly want a 100% authentic impression.) Many of you seem to have put it together over years.

No other "hobby" I know of takes this long to assemble the required gear. Money is all that is needed for most hobbies, and you can be skiing, fishing, canoeing, making cool looking and kick-butt computers in a week. Not a year.

So what I have done, being of the microwave-I-want-it-now mindset, is get what I can in time for the event I want to attend for my first event.

I de-farbed my 1861 Springfield myself as much as I can. I did not know I posessed metal working skills, but I found its a lot like working with wood, which I am good at. Take it slow, and work it carefully. But I dare you to find where I filed off the ".58 cal" and "Blackpowder use only" and the "Made in Italy" and then sanded and polished it back to its original sheen. Actually, I am quite proud of the job I've done on it so far. I know I am not done with it yet. And may not be by my first event.

I am learning to hand sew button-holes, so I can try and de-farb my clothing as much as I can. I figure it is better to get the best gear that I can, defarb it as much as I can, and just get to my first event as fast as I can. There I can learn more, see more, touch more, and recieve guidance from those who know this business, and see first hand what needs to be done. Pictures and reading guides can only take a person so far.

Its not the prices preventing entry to this hobby, (in my nfg opinion). Its the time required to assemble a good, authentic kit that will cause many to remain a spectator, and not become a participant.

My .02

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Can we have our cake and eat it too?

Hallo!

If one's chosen Mental Picture "buy's (no pun intended)" into it... the "Campaigner's Manifesto" reads:

2. I obtain the most historically accurate clothing, equipment, and other relevant items available to me. I insist upon the use of proper materials and construction techniques in all reproduction items. I handle my finances in a manner that will prevent financial considerations from limiting the accuracy of my impression.

As a famous modern movie star and singer once replied when asked about her body.. "If it came in a bottle, we'd all have one."

IMHO, when one can buy "authentic" items, used and sometimes even new, for less, for the same, or for a few percent more than the same goods new from Run of the Mill, Sutlers' Row, and Brand X makers and vendors on say the AC Forum, while everyone knows their budget and wallet best- it is a weak argument to hold the cost of "authentic items" other than as a self-imposed personal Glass Ceiling or Eternal Colonel/Captain unit control Boogerman Strategy.

I would agree that the "EBUFU" concept of portraying researched and documented event-specific units as a sort of "uniform du jour" can require one to have a closet full of U.S. and C.S. uniforms, gear, and arms.
But, IMHO, Life is about choices. IF one makes the choice to choose to attend six events where six different "kits" are needed, then the expense will naturally be higher than the lad who choose to have one just impression and do it ultimately well.

But yes, IMHO, we might would ALL be "H/A's" in the material culture department were we to receive our "authentic" clothing, kit, and arm issuances "free" from the Government... ;)

Other's heresies, and mileage, will vary...

Curt

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Can we have our cake and eat it too?

But yes, IMHO, we might would ALL be "H/A's" in the material culture department were we to receive our "authentic" clothing, kit, and arm issuances "free" from the Government... ;)
Curt

Curt-
good point. I think we sometimes don't take into account that this stuff originally would (mostly) have been issued to a soldier, rather than come out-of-pocket. So the more detailed we get, the more expensive it will be for us.

This is an educated guess... I think. Sound right to you?

Historically, if you convert to 1860s dollars, would it probably be expensive for soldiers to pay for rifle/uniform/ammo, etc. all on their own. I'm sure some people could afford it, but others could not too...

Does anyone want to do the breakdown and conversion of costs...? Might be a neat project...?

-Johnny

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Can we have our cake and eat it too?

2. I obtain the most historically accurate clothing, equipment, and other relevant items available to me. I insist upon the use of proper materials and construction techniques in all reproduction items. I handle my finances in a manner that will prevent financial considerations from limiting the accuracy of my impression.

Personally, I cannot justify upholding #2 of the Campaigner's Manifesto by purchasing accurate researched kit......and not uphold #9

9. I maintain myself in a physical condition that allows me to portray Civil War soldiers with realism. I keep my weight at a level that honestly represents men living on period soldier food and performing period soldier duties.

I look nothing like a CS soldier in the images per my research and thus stay away from the amazing events posted on this site which kills me (w/ few exceptions.... Civ or something I just cant resist from an ancestor participation perspective). At least at a LH I can qualify that underneath my stinky veneer of veg dyed handstitched jean coolness, physically I look NOTHING like a CS soldier.

I am 40 years old and 40 pounds too heavy how can I be an "accurate" representation ? Know your lane.

[1stMaine]

Re: Can we have our cake and eat it too?

Christopher,

That is where you are wrong, and that right seriously. I used to feel the same way. I had several rounds of surgery, and the meds put weight on me. It's harder to keep it off because of them, despite my best efforts.

Anyway, item 9 of the manifesto I will ignore from now on. I will do so because of a couple of self-appointed "regulators" of the hobby. These cowards, and they are that, started to email me from an anonymous hotmail account, telling me that it was time to retire from reenacting, that "their" hobby was being ruined by folks like me and all the other fellows with grey hair and over 30 years of age. These emails were full of vitriol and pure hate, complaining about how "they" are cheated of "their" rights at events by having to see fellows who are too old, or too overweight, or too grey, etc. These punks railed about how much they spent and yada yada yada.

Those who complain about the dwindling number of campaigners at campaign events might do well to ponder on how certain "younger" fellows might well be driving others away. I find it ironic that at events I have attended, those older fellows are the ones staying in character, while the "more appropriate" ones are sitting around the fire talking about their "kewl" gear.

I have a pretty thick skin. However, the part that really angered me was these punks in their emails to me were saying how I need to stop reenacting, and instead ought to "give them the benefit" of my knowleadge and experience for free.

They can take that and stuff it.

I didn't go to Rich Mountain. I had some concerns about not "fitting in" but after seeing the pix of some who were there, I am never foing to worry about my weight again.

Now, as to the question at hand,

as a percentage of income, I would offer that most items we purchase today for our clothing and kit are actually LESS than their period counterparts. I will never begrudge a vendor their prices, because I know full well what goes into their work. As to learning to dw, that's a skill that I have tried to acquire and have given up on. You can tell the things I try to sew by the bloodstains. There are somethings that i do well, and I am fortunate to understand what I cannot do well. Thus, I turn to others for the clothing and accoutrements I need. I feel humbled that we have as many fine folks producing accirate items as we do these days. When I started, you could count them on one hand and otherwise ended up using original gear.

I have no complaints about our vendors.

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Can we have our cake and eat it too?

"I will never begrudge a vendor their prices, because I know full well what goes into their work.- Tim Kindred"

Good point, Tim.

Now you know why I actually bother to give "atta-boys" to vendors on this forum- to help encourage good commentary on excellent items I have purchased from quality vendors. They got it hard quite often making gear properly... I think we all can agree from their discussions on this forum, if not from dealing with quality vendors in person.

Good quality does cost a higher price and and quality should be rewarded with good commentary to encourage others to patronize those vendors and keep them in business so we actually have vendors for this hobby in the long run.

We should take the time to encourage each other to get better impressions and to help each other get better in our impressions. Our vendors are part of our hobby too-a big part. ;)

Thanks -Johnny Lloyd

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Can we have our cake and eat it too?

Hallo!

Moderator hat on....

Even for the Sinks, we are drifting across the "Authentic Campaigner" line into the realm of militant Farbism and Mainstreamism, and the "them versus us" type discussions frowned upon on the AC Forum.

Please rein it in.

Thanks,

Curt

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Can we have our cake and eat it too?

Curt and all-

Maybe the conversation has already played-itself out anyway at this point. Could this thread be the "resting place" for this debate... ;)

I feel, after this discourse... We know a sampling of our subculture's opinions and really they are all valid to us individually and some very good ones at that- really good input from vendors AND consumers.

Perhaps we have come to an agreement of-sorts on opinions the topic? All we have to do now as individuals is decide for ourselves what is best, really.

Thanks to all that have contributed so far... Very interesting topic indeed. - Johnny

[barnfolk]

Re: Can we have our cake and eat it too?

As someone contemplating getting back into the hobby after a fifteen year hiatus, the cost of doing it right is surely daunting (somehow I've managed to have less disposable income now than I did in high school. maybe I should get a paper route!) Fortunately, I have some supportive folks in the 2nd MN that have let me borrow gear, but I hate to freeload for as long as it will take me to purchase gear and not break the budget.
I was wondering if anyone has had success renting gear. I know I have enjoyed renting equipment to try out other hobbies. It's a good way to test the waters or scratch the occasional itch without the full commitment. And after a few times renting, it is often easier to justify the cost. Is this one possible way to answer Mr. Lloyd's question about having and eating cake?

Yours,
Andy Barnett

[DougCooper]

Re: Can we have our cake and eat it too?

as a percentage of income, I would offer that most items we purchase today for our clothing and kit are actually LESS than their period counterparts. I will never begrudge a vendor their prices, because I know full well what goes into their work. ... I feel humbled that we have as many fine folks producing accirate items as we do these days. When I started, you could count them on one hand...

I have no complaints about our vendors.

Well said Tim. When I started Joe Covais, Chris Schreiber, Hank Kluin and Charles Childs were the authentic show in town. Chris Daley, Joe Blunt and many others joined them, until today we have quite a collection of folks who know that there are, like Paul says, no shortcuts...and work their tails off doing it right.

I always go back to what my Korean tailor told me he would charge for a correctly made US frock coat - $1400 minimum, plus materials.

[Justin Runyon]

Re: Can we have our cake and eat it too?

Quality costs money, that's just the way it is. If you think vendors are getting filthy stinking rich doing this, your very likely very wrong.

I've been in this hobby through my High School years, and through my really lean college years, into my present lean post college years. I have consistantly been probably the lowest earner in my mess. But I have always been able to outfit myself with all the needed trappings of an authentic campaigner (and probably alot of stuff I don't need).

Bottom line, the good stuff (sack coats, golf clubs, train sets, metal detectors &c.) will always cost more. Buy it, dont buy it, buy it slowly...whatever you want. The lack of owning something may keep you from going somewhere sure, but hey the lack of still owning my 66 Mustang precludes me from going to classic Mustang shows:cry_smile