CS Artillery Sergeant Major's Jacket

[PaulJ]

Hi,
noticed this jacket on the Old South Military Antiques website:-

http://www.oldsouthantiques.com/os1395p1a.htm

Does anyone know anything about this jacket? I was wondering if it fits into the 'category' of commutation period or if it could be linked to a depot system. I recall seeing a well known photo of a large group of SC Artillery men with six button jackets (I think), one of whom is wearing what may be red pointed cuff trim (not all published versions show the full photo with him in it). One caption I saw referred to the South Carolina depot - does anyone know if such a depot existed or may have produced jackets such as this?

This jacket is apparently in the book "Collecting the Confederacy" by Mr Pritchard. I have it on order...

Best regards.

[Vicksburg Dave]

Re: CS Artillery Sergeant Major's Jacket

Interesting. It almost looks like the fabric on the collar and sleeves were added after the jacket was constructed. I wonder if the artillerymen took a regular jacket and fancied it up to suit his rank?

[Slouch]

Re: CS Artillery Sergeant Major's Jacket

looks like a standard "Richmond Depot" pattern with less than the standard number of buttons. As a guy who hates sewing buttonholes, I like it!

[PaulJ]

Re: CS Artillery Sergeant Major's Jacket

Hi,

found the photo I was referring to on the web:-

http://www.sonofthesouth.net/civil-war-pictures/records/confederate-artillery.htm

A cropped version of this can be seen in Les Jensen's GI series photo book "Johnny Reb" (1996) on page 71. Another version with more of the photo can be seen in Philip Katcher's book "Confederate Forces of the ACW" (1990) though the picture quality is not as good. I found this website which shows even more of the picture with an NCO on the right I haven't seen before - though again the quality is not so good.

In the Les Jensen book it identifies these men as the Palmetto battery of the South Carolina Light Artillery (1863 I believe) and also that "These men would have been supplied by the clothing depot at Charleston". I couldn't help noticing that the jackets have 6 buttons like NC jackets - and like this Artillery Sgt Major's jacket hence my curiousity as to whether anyone is familiar with this jacket's history. Of the 13 reasonably visible men in the photo, one has solid pointed cuff trim like this jacket (I always imagined this might be an earlier issue than the other jackets in the photo). Looking at the superior quality Jensen print it looks like three further men also have some kind of trim (two either side of the Officer, and the Corporal to the left of the photo). The youthful looking flag-bearer appears to have tape trim on the collar, the man on the other side of the Officer appears to have tape trim on the collar and cuffs (RD1 style) and the Corporal appears to have trim on the collar and possibly down the front of the jacket (I wouldn't use the web photo to try to see this). There is a difference in that these jackets primarily have rounded bottoms whereas the Sgt Major's jacket on the Old South website has a squared off bottom - though so does at least one jacket in the photo (on the right of the picture next to the cannon). I don't think you can judge from the photo whether the bottom of the solid trimmed jacket is square cut or rounded.

As David says it could be post-issue trim added to an NCO of prestigious rank, but interestingly in the photo the two Sgt's (the tall man in the middle is also a Sgt) have untrimmed jackets, and the man with solid cuff trim is a mere private.

It looks like the Sgt Major's jacket may have English import "A" buttons - more easily available somewhere near the coast and more importantly where blockade runners were coming in if they are original to the jacket!

Well, just thinking aloud. :) Interested in your views and comments, or as said before if anyone is aware of any history to this jacket.



On an aside, the Kepis look like they possibly all have (red?) bands, and one man seems to have a stripe on his trousers (4th from right).





Best regards,

[SCTiger]

Re: CS Artillery Sergeant Major's Jacket

For some reason, battery wagons would be equipped with several yards of "red flannel" on the supply and tool list. The red flannel could have been used for a variety reasons. Although this would have been a post manufacture modification.

A garrison unit stationed near Charleston would have lots of spare time for this, although I don't believe this should be done by every artilleryman out there, we had a good discussion on red trim several years ago.

[DougCooper]

Re: CS Artillery Sergeant Major's Jacket

Some of us were discussing this the other day and it just feels a bit off. How many CS Sgt Major original garments and/or photos of CS Sgt Majors in uniform have you ever seen? This is rarer than hen's teeth and I for one am not convinced the trim is wartime nor am I completely convinced the jacket itself is original to the war. A number of things bother myself and other folks who have seen this - the trim, the size (proportions of the shoulders), the buttons (all the same imported A), no inside lining photos (would help confirm), the top stitching (very dark thread - not the more homogenous shade thread tends to take on over 145 years on other jackets). Lastly, there is no provenance of any kind, which is a bit surprising considering it is a Sgt Major.

The note from "Collecting the Confederacy" page 260:

"The coarse homespun shell jacket shown above and at right has the insignia of a Confederate sergeant major sewn onto the sleeves."

"Courtesy: Steinman Collection"

The Acknowledgments page credits "Mr. J. Steinman allowed me to include his collection of rare Confederate uniforms."

The note about Les Jensen's analysis is puzzling. It does not appear in the listing - wish it did...and I wonder why not? I am not convinced old South is convinced it is 100% genuine. Mr J Steinman may not be convinced either. Les Jensen has uncovered many post war garments in prestigious collections. As you can imagine, that would be a bummer to find out a few of your original CW garments were in fact not...

Not saying this ain't the real deal, but it is sure frustrating when these private collections go to sell stuff this amazing and all you get is a couple of photos and no interior details. Somebody was convinced - it sold for a nice round $75000. If this is an honest to goodness CS Sgt Major of artillery jacket, that is probably a pretty good deal.

[Slouch]

Re: CS Artillery Sergeant Major's Jacket

It does not seem to be an exact match to the uniforms in the SC picture, but it is close.

It appears from the photos of the jacket that the sleeve lining at the cuff is VERY clean. In fact the, entire jacket seems VERY clean.

I do not believe the possible English buttons indicate with any reliability that the jacket was produced and issued along the coast of SC. Imported items were sent where ever they were needed, transportation routes considered. Tons of stuff was being sent to Richmond from the coast, though more from NC than SC.

[PalmettoGuard]

Re: CS Artillery Sergeant Major's Jacket

I've got to agree with Doug on this one. Something just does not seem right about this jacket. It'd be nice to see it up close.

[SCTiger]

Re: CS Artillery Sergeant Major's Jacket

Old South has a reputation for being very open and fair, maybe we could write them about this? In the past they have always let us use their photos for discssions. It's unusual but, not improbable that this could be a genuine coat. Artillery "a" buttons were available, even one of Hunley crew members wore them. Now the trim could have been added later. Everyone makes mistakes in this business, including the pros. I wouldn't throw doubt on their reputation without solid proof. We are just speculating at this point.

[PaulJ]

Re: CS Artillery Sergeant Major's Jacket

Hi,

just like to add some thoughts on the (theoretical) survival potential of a rare type CS jacket (Sgt Major rank for example). I wonder if the scarcity of such a jacket is the very thing that might ensure it's survival. If (as I suspect) people have been collecting CS memorabilia since 1865 (or even during the war itself - "Hey, that's a nice Reb kepi/ sword!"), would people not be likely to select an item that looked more interesting (with rank, trim etc). If a souvenir hunter saw a relatively attractive uniform item among a mound of military surplus including literally no end of non-descript RD2's which one would you pick up to impress your friends back home?

As an analogy I recall speaking to a WW2 collector some years ago who was collecting German WW2 militaria not so long after the war. He recounted that he would visit a textile plant in Europe and buy bales of German uniforms of a minimum quantity, drive down the road, select the choice items and leave the rest in a ditch. Then he would go back, buy another bale and repeat the actions. All the 'boring' Infantry privates uniforms would rot in the ditch and the 'interesting' NCO's etc jackets/ caps would be more likely to survive. Would similar scenarios have occurred in the years after the ACW?

Back to the question of a surviving Artillery Sgt Major's jacket. Whereas an infantryman on campaign may have seen massive degradation to his uniform from life in the field - would the same be said for an artilleryman (perhaps) in a coastal garrison? Would a Sgt Major be able to exercise the privileges of rank and ensure that he had a second/ best jacket in order to look 'sharp' when the occasion arose?

All that said I'm not commenting on this particular jacket as others speak with far more experience than I do; merely adding some thoughts as to how a rare item might survive until the present day.



Best regards,

[SCTiger]

Re: CS Artillery Sergeant Major's Jacket

What do you think? Check out the attached picture. Look similar??? I knew I had seen this type of coat before and I downloaded image this off Ebay some time ago!

[Mbond057]

Re: CS Artillery Sergeant Major's Jacket

Gregory,

Thanks for sharing.

This looks like a seven button shell and the one for sale is a six button.

[PaulJ]

Re: CS Artillery Sergeant Major's Jacket

Great picture Gregory! True, it's 7 button with a rounded bottom - but looking at the date and the amount of trim it must be classed as an unusual image worthy of comment? On the assumption that the last jacket worn is more likely to survive (unless kept as a souvenir e.g the Blair RD2) this possibly later war jacket adds to the argument for a jacket trimmed in this 'regulation' manner being a survivor of the conflict? (As in the Sgt Major jacket at the start of the thread.)

I make the inscription on the photo:-

"James Lafette, born 31st March (?) 1846.
Son of J.B (?) L.
Received June 10th 1864"

Presumably the photo was received by a non-immediate family member, hence the un-familiar "son of". The received date is not the date the photo was taken, but how much younger than 18 could a 1st Sgt be? (But was anyone taking photo's in the South in 1864 with the lack of available chemicals.....)

Was there any more information in the E-Bay listing? It would make him an 18 year old 1st Sgt at that 1864 date - was that very common I wonder?
Is there any way of narrowing the trim colour down (Wow! - banded Kepi and piped trousers too) - I wonder if it looks too light for black? At the risk of speculating myself to death, I would imagine him more likely to be a garrison soldier (artillery?) with no concern about advertising his rank to an enemy sharp-shooter. However, would high casualty rates among the infantry have elevated young men to senior NCO rank more quickly than in a (coastal?) artillery garrison?
Also, look how neatly that rank has been applied. Is that the work of a seamstress rather than a soldier?

Best regards,

[GreencoatCross]

Re: CS Artillery Sergeant Major's Jacket

All,

I don't quite understand how this jacket looks "too good" to be true. Everything about the materials, pattern, construction technique, etc. all seem to check out to me....in my opinion. Is it simply because the jacket is trimmed with what looks like red bunting? I believe that whomever wore this during the war did not wear it for long and sent it home for safe keeping or else was not presented the chance to wear it enough to currently show easily visible signs of use. Could have been considered a "dress uniform" of sorts for the guy and he took care of it, or perhaps someone did after the war.

Consider this...

Once upon a time a man who shall remain nameless (at his own request) allowed Dan Wambaugh and I to study his ancestor's U.S.S.S. frock coat. At the time the only known U.S.S.S. frocks were owned by Don Troiani and the Smithsonian, but this man's family quietly had theirs locked away since the war. Dan can attest to this story, but this frock coat was indeed an original and in mint condition. It might as well have been pulled from a bale of frocks and handed to us. The cloth still looked like velvet (yes, it was that fine), the thread was a deep, rich indigo blue, the trim was unfaded and unworn, the chevrons (cut from the same cloth as the trim) were also mint. This coat had indeed been used in the field though, it still had burrs and other vegitation on the tails, and the collar was crudely lowered by the soldier for comfort. And yet there it was, still very well taken care of, not soiled and motheaten, but probably one of the single most impressive and mint looking original garments I have ever seen.....I mean the thing was still shiney.

It's not out of the question for this CS jacket to be authentic, complete with trim that could actually be original to it...I mean, if you look close it seems that the chevrons are hand-applied to the sleeve BEFORE the sleeve seams were finished. Same thing for the cuff. I admit that the collar trim looks kind of funky from the outside, especially down near the body seam in the front, but consider the whipstitching on the inner collar piece. It appears to be attached to the red outer collar by the whipstitch, then topstitched.

Clearer photos would be great, so would interior photos. Has anyone requested this of the current owner?

[Andrew Kasmar]

Re: CS Artillery Sergeant Major's Jacket

Hi,

C. J. Daley has a picture of a Columbus depot jacket with red trim on his web site, which looks very close to this one. The main difference that I can see is that this jack has a two piece sleeve rather than a one piece sleeve that was the normaly on Columbus depot jackets.

Andrew Kasmar

4th Missouri Company E