Man Killed Disarming CW Shell

[fortdonelsonrelics]

Re: Man Killed Disarming CW Shell

My LCI instructor last year drilled it into our heads last year that if one makes a habit of running stop signs/stop lights, he's (eventually) going to get hit. Might be sooner, might be later, but probability will catch up with you, and when it does, you're toast.

I'm not an EOD man either (thought about it once or twice, but came back to my senses), but I have a number of close friends who are/were, and have watched the EOD folks in action. The reason we find these spent artillery shells lying around is that they're duds... usually faulty fuzes. The dud rate is pretty high; in the tens of percent in many cases, even higher for Confederate fuzes. There's a hair trigger there that may set the shell off when it does achieve the right circumstance. One of those things is electricity -- static or otherwise -- and I am informed from the article that Mr. Sam was in the habit of subjecting these items to electrolysis in order to clean off corrosion. Note that electricity and electrolysis share something in common. Another thing that sets these things off is physical shock... such as being jarred or hit with a hammer, or drilled into.

To add to the above complications with fuzes, old black powder is more sensitive than fresh black powder, and thus goes off more easily when it does decide to blow.

Don't be a dud... let sleeping shells lie!

This is where alot of mis-information get started, as pointed out in my first post.

Simply banging or dropping civil war artillery shells will not make them go off (the only exception to this is the Tice Fuse). By avoiding the conditions of sparks, friction, compression (internal gas pressure), heat (572F or higher), and static electricity will eliminate the threat. (oh and by the way remember this when your comrades are smoking pipes or cigars with a cartridge box full of powder within the ranks of others, although another topic).

Drilling a shell or grinding on a shell with an open cavity is the way inwhich this occurs. And yes, powder from a dry shell is volitile.

However, there is another occurance that has been seen in shells that have gotten wet over time. Water can leak into the cavity of a shell and mix with the black powder. This can occur over time and as the water seeps in and evaporates within the shell, the by product is Hydrogen Sulfide (H2S). The gas pressure builds up in these shells and can be anywhere between 5 and 20psi. This gas is volatile and many believe that this is what causes the actual explosion once the chamber has been breeched. In fact I have disarmed shells that have hissed once being punched through.

Also, electrolysis is done under water and the electrical current is not turned on until the item is submerged in water, so it is unlikely this was the cause.

There are reports now coming out that support the initial claim that he was cleaning a shell, but using a hand grinder to do it (presenting the risk of spark, friction).

This email is not directed towards anyone individually, however this forum would expect no less in regards to accuracy of information on less important topics and therfore is why I posted.

I do disarm artillery shells, and have done so following the US Government's guidelines and through consultation of the nation's leading experts on Civil War artillery. We drill every shell remotely, underwater, and flush the cavities thoroughly.

As in a previous post, I strongly urge anyone who knows, or is, disarming shells in what you precieve to be an unsafe manner, tell them to stop immediately.

John Walsh

[fortdonelsonrelics]

Re: Man Killed Disarming CW Shell

I met Sam White back in 1989. We relic hunted together for many years, spending hundreds of hours in the woods and fields of Hanover and Petersburg. At the time, Sam and I were fairly good friends.

In about 1993 or so, I was over at his place and he was showing me the "proper" technique for unloading shells which basically consisted of submerging the shell in just enough water to cover the hole that he was drilling with an electric hand drill. After the hole was drilled, water would run into the shell making the powder wet and then the powder would run out.

After holding my breath and standing back watching him do two shells in this manner, he wanted me to do one to which my response was " No F&^%$#G way, your going to blow us up " I remember that he laughed at me when I said this.

Not long after the shell disarming lesson, Sam and I had a falling out over a rather trivial matter and never spoke again. I would periodically see Sam at the CW shows but we never spoke and it is now much to my regret that I never took the iniative to make amends.

Best,

Scott,

Your post makes us reflect on the bigger issue at hand.

John Walsh

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Man Killed Disarming CW Shell

...Ft. Macon...

The state has restored the casemate where this took place. The WW2 incident was never part of the official tour but it was mentioned in the museum interpretation at one time. The damage that shell caused to the solid masonry firebox, hearth, floor and ceiling was simply amazing.

A relic dealer was killed and a pedestrian in front of his shop was severely wounded by a ball in the Greenville NC area in the early 80's. Some kids were killed around Richmond in the late 70's trying to get into something they had picked up near Ft Lee VA.

...........

You never really know where you are going to find the stuff. I inherited my grandparent’s house a little while back and I discovered what turned out to be a live parrot shell when cleaning the old tool shed last spring. I had had noticed it a few times over the years but really never paid any attention to it. My grandfather picked it in his yard decades ago and just stuck in on the shelf with the other old odds & ends. The house is on what was the center of Hoke’s and Wilmington’s southern defense lines. The ground was fought over on Feb. 22nd and again briefly on morning of the 23rd, ‘65. Prior to the engagement the property was within the area of at least two training camps, the latter being artillery.

[Jim Mayo]

Re: Man Killed Disarming CW Shell

To add to the above complications with fuzes, old black powder is more sensitive than fresh black powder, and thus goes off more easily when it does decide to blow.

Tom; Seems like I remember that subject being kicked around on another forum and the result was there is no evidence that black powder become more sensitive over time. Do you know of any sources that say otherwise?

Another thing folks may be interested in is that the black powder in CW shells does not resemble the black powder we shoot in our muskets except in color. It is usually course and contains burnt sticks and large pieces of charcoal. Usually the bigger the shell, the larger the grains of powder. I have seen some that looks like small gravel with peices of burnt wood mixed in.

Thanks

[Canebrake Rifle Guards]

Re: Man Killed Disarming CW Shell

Jim-

Harry Ridgeway's relic site has a page on Civil War blackpowder done by a PhD in chemistry. He makes the point that blackpowder is not an explosive, but rather burns really quick. Which explains your wood chips.

He also states that black powder does not get more unstable over time. Another relic collector told me once that its not the powder in these old shells that ignited, but the gases that build up as the powder degrades over 140 years.

That relic dealer in NC that was killed in the early 80s, I remember him. I'd bought a bayonet from him and 6 months later was reading about him in the newspaper. I thought that injured teenager was actually a neighborhood kid that helped him out in his shop.

Greg Starbuck

[Chip42]

Re: Man Killed Disarming CW Shell

I read about that. That's crazy that Civil War munitions could still go off after 140+ years! I couldn't believe it. I wonder what happened to the shell in the house that got the glass smashed?

History Geek
Evan Hunsberger


I posted over on Szabo's about my co-worker who is the Sister in Law of the owner of the house that got hit. I saw the pics of the damage that was done. After asking, she informed me that the Virginia State Police confiscated the piece of shell, although the owner of the house was hoping to keep it.

[Canebrake Rifle Guards]

Re: Man Killed Disarming CW Shell

The erie thing is to think that the war is still claiming lives.

623,000 + 1.



Greg Starbuck

[Dignann]

Re: Man Killed Disarming CW Shell

ATF: Spark caused deadly cannonball blast in Va.

By STEVE SZKOTAK

Associated Press
August 11, 2008

RICHMOND, Va. - A Civil War relic hunter who was killed in an explosion in February was cleaning a cannonball when a spark ignited black powder within the ancient ordnance, a federal investigation concluded Monday.

Sam White, 53, was working on the 9-inch naval cannonball in the driveway of his suburban home with a wire-brush grinder, which ignited the powder, exploding the shell, according to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms investigation.

A 4-inch piece of shrapnel dug from the asphalt of the driveway contained evidence the shell had been made inert, either by White or the person who sold him the shell, said Bill Dunham, resident agent in charge of the Richmond ATF office.

But naval shells were built to shield the powder from water and other elements, so all of the cannonball's 3 or 4 pounds of black powder were not thoroughly flushed from the shell's casing, Dunham said.

The explosion sent a 1- or 2-pound section of the shell hurtling from the Chester subdivision where White lived and through the roof of a house one-quarter of a mile away. No one else was injured in the Feb. 18 explosion.

Dunham said the investigation did not determine whether White had flushed the shell with water or if he had purchased the shell as inert. "I don't see any criminal responsibility," he said.

White, a respected, widely known member of the Civil War relic hunting community, was using the grinder to clean off residue from the shell, which dated to the 1850s or 1860s. In published accounts before his death, White estimated he had worked on 1,600 shells for collectors and museums.

Brenda White said she has "absolutely no clue" where her husband obtained the shell.

"As far as I'm concerned, Sam did nothing wrong and was doing what he loved and it was one of those freaky, horrific accidents," White wrote in an e-mail to The Associated Press.

White's death rocked the passionate fraternity of Civil War collectors and relic hunters, who search trash pits and river bottoms for munitions, clothing and buttons. They fear White's death has inspired officials to destroy any cannonballs that are found.

"The big thing is, we revere Sam's memory and one way to honor him is to allow this hobby to keep on going," said Ben Greenbaum, president of the Central Virginia Relic Hunters Association. "The greater danger is in destroying history."

The Park Service did not immediately return a telephone message left by the AP.

Explosives experts said White's death was an extraordinary event and one rarely recorded since the end of the Civil War. But a U.S. Army explosives expert strongly disagreed that munitions from that period do not pose a modern threat.

"My position is that these old cannonballs, and any cannonball that has an energetic filler, is dangerous and potentially unstable," said Jimmy L. Langley, an explosives and toxic chemical agent safety specialist with the U.S. Army Technical Center for Explosives Safety in Oklahoma.

"These items are dangerous, they were designed as weapons of war to kill people and they can still do just that," he wrote in an e-mail.

Brenda White said her husband would be pained to know his death would "bring such scrutiny to the relic community."

"The majority of these people want nothing more than to see history preserved _ not destroyed or hidden away in a museum closet," she wrote.

Dunham said 43 shells were taken from White's home after the explosion and flushed of powder.

http://www.wtop.com/?nid=25&sid=1457525

Eric

[JimKindred]

Re: Man Killed Disarming CW Shell

If nothing else comes out of this, people should always remember "they were designed as weapons of war to kill people and they can still do just that". With that in mind it pays not to be complacent when working with explosives - old or new.

[RJSamp]

Re: Man Killed Disarming CW Shell

If nothing else comes out of this, people should always remember "they were designed as weapons of war to kill people and they can still do just that". With that in mind it pays not to be complacent when working with explosives - old or new.

Ditto for rifles and pistols.