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  • Return Our Flags

    By Howard Wilkinson
    hwilkinson@enquirer.com

    In 1862, in the midst of the Civil War, two Confederate battle flags from Tennessee made their way to Cincinnati, brought here by the Cincinnati soldiers and sailors who captured them as trophies of war and displayed them so that the whole town could revel in the local boys' victory.

    And today, Tennessee would like to have them back.

    But what happened to the battle flags is a mystery.

    "Maybe they no longer exist; or maybe they are sitting in somebody's attic somewhere in Cincinnati,'' said Greg Briggs, a historian from Clarksville, Tenn., who is writing a book on the battle flags carried by Tennessee troops in the Civil War.

    "If they do exist,'' Briggs said, "it's time they came home."

    The regimental battle flag was a sacred object to the troops who fought in the Civil War, both North and South.

    It was carried into battle by a color bearer - a soldier of extraordinary bravery who was willing to face enemy fire while carrying the colors. He was often the first to fall.

    The flag had a practical use, too - soldiers separated from their units by the smoke and chaos of a battlefield could see the flag flying and use it as a rallying point.

    When a unit was overwhelmed by its opponents, it was common for the victors to take the unit's battle flag as a trophy. Often, it was returned to the victorious regiment's home town for public display.

    'They may hold a clue'

    The Tennessee State Museum in Nashville, for which Briggs works, has a number of Tennessee battle flags on display, as do state museums in many other states.

    Many of the Confederate battle flags were returned to the former Confederate states in the years right after the Civil War as a gesture of good will by the Northern states whose troops captured them.

    Briggs' dream now is that someone will find the Tennessee flags that came to Cincinnati 147 years ago and send them home.

    The first of the two Tennessee flags that historical records show ended up in Cincinnati was the flag of the Gillespie Guards, a company of the 19th Tennessee Volunteer Infantry.

    It was captured in January 1862 at the battle of Mill Springs, Ky., by men of the 9th Ohio Infantry.

    The 9th Ohio was a famous unit - it was made up entirely of German-Americans from Cincinnati, all of them members of the Turner Society, a German organization dedicated to physical fitness and education.

    In the 19th century, the Turner Society - which still exists today - was a large and powerful organization, meeting in an ornate building at the corner of Walnut Street and 14th Street in Over-the-Rhine called Central Turner Hall.

    Briggs, in his research on Tennessee battle flags, found a Louisville Journal story in Feb. 1862 that said the 9th Ohio sent the captured flag of the Gillespie Guards to the Turner Society in Cincinnati.

    Briggs said he believes the flag, along with other artifacts sent home by the 9th Ohio, were kept at the Walnut Street hall. But the Cincinnati Central Turners moved out of the building in the mid-1950s and the building was demolished.

    The Cincinnati Historical Society has a large number of records from the Turner Society, according to Anne Shepherd, a research librarian.

    "The records are here for anyone to look at,'' Shepherd said. "They may hold a clue as to what happened with the battle flag, but, then again, they may not. It will a difficult one to track down."

    'Those flags belong in Tennessee'

    The second flag belonged to a Tennessee unit called Crew's Battalion.

    The battalion's flag was captured by Union sailors in Feb. 1862, when their gunboat flotilla - made up of The Cincinnati, The Conestoga, and The Essex - was heading up the Tennessee River. They stopped to ransack the riverside camp north of Pittsburg Landing where Crew's Battalion was training.

    The Cincinnati Commercial, a newspaper that covered the war thoroughly, printed a letter on Feb. 18, 1862 from John A. Duble, a steamboat captain, who, according to census records, lived on Sycamore Street in Cincinnati.

    Duble, who was serving as the second-ranking officer on one of the gunboats, said he was sending the Commercial the Crew's Battalion flag "that I took from their colonel's headquarters."

    "After taking all that was valuable in their camp, we burnt it and destroyed everything appertaining to it,'' Duble wrote.

    The newspaper attached a note to Duble's letter, saying "the Rebel flag alluded to above may be seen at the counting room of this office."

    The Commercial's offices were at the northeast corner of Fourth and Race streets downtown, but, by the early 20th century, the building was long gone.

    Dan Reigle, a member of the Cincinnati Civil War Round Table who has been assisting Briggs in his search for the flags, said no one has yet found any records that show if the flag stayed in the possession of the Commercial or was returned to Duble.

    "If we could find that there are some descendants of John Duble still around, maybe we could get a lead on what happened to the flag,'' Reigle said. "But it is a real long shot. And, the fact is, that a lot of Civil war artifacts seem to grow legs and walk away. In other words, people take them."

    Briggs said he will continue searching what records remain.

    "Maybe somebody will come forward and say, 'yes, I have that flag in a box in my basement,'' Briggs said. "I know it's a pretty remote possibility. But it's worth a shot. Those flags belong in Tennessee."

    Drew

    "God knows, as many posts as go up on this site everyday, there's plenty of folks who know how to type. Put those keyboards to work on a real issue that's tied to the history that we love and obsess over so much." F.B.

    "...mow hay, cut wood, prepare great food, drink schwitzel, knit, sew, spin wool, rock out to a good pinch of snuff and somehow still find time to go fly a kite." N.B.

  • #2
    Re: Return Our Flags

    Dear Sir,
    Collecting Secesh flags is a hobby initiated by Colonel Elmer Ellsworth. All the military museums of Europe display captured flags , as to the victor goes the spoils. The reconciliation gesture of returning captured flags was a positive effort at the time but given the population and imigration shifts, is hardly important now. What is the point of returning a flag? Is not as if it was recapured by force of arms and public interest in historic flags is miniscule. It would seem that to retain the flag would actually increase the historic value as it illustrates the importance of flags to the soldiers of the time and adds luster to the honor of the victor if the flag was captured in combat.
    all for the old flag,
    David Corbett
    Dave Corbett

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Return Our Flags

      I would just like to see them preserved. The 1st and 4th Florida's stainless banner was in a filing cabinet in an Ohio Nat'l guard office up until the 70's when it was supposed to be returned but never was. It was found a couple years ago wadded up ina trash bag in a closet somewhere and is finally back in Tallahassee. I understand to the victors go the spoils, but if they aren't willing to spend the money to properly preserve the flags, they need to be given to someone who would.
      Bryant Roberts
      Palmetto Guards/WIG/LR

      Interested in the Palmetto Guards?
      palmettoguards@gmail.com

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Return Our Flags

        Civil war veteran Ambrose Bierce had something to say about this during an earlier controversy:

        THE CONFEDERATE FLAGS.


        Tut-tut! give back the flags--how can you care
        You veterans and heroes?
        Why should you at a kind intention swear
        Like twenty Neroes?

        Suppose the act was not so overwise--
        Suppose it was illegal--
        Is 't well on such a question to arise
        And pinch the Eagle?

        Nay, let's economize his breath to scold
        And terrify the alien
        Who tackles him, as Hercules of old
        The bird Stymphalian.

        Among the rebels when we made a breach
        Was it to get their banners?
        That was but incidental--'t was to teach
        Them better manners.

        They know the lesson well enough to-day;
        Now, let us try to show them
        That we 're not only stronger far than they.
        (How we did mow them!)

        But more magnanimous. You see, my lads,
        'T was an uncommon riot;
        The warlike tribes of Europe fight for "fads,"
        We fought for quiet.

        If we were victors, then we all must live
        With the same flag above us;
        'Twas all in vain unless we now forgive
        And make them love us.

        Let kings keep trophies to display above
        Their doors like any savage;
        The freeman's trophy is the foeman's love,
        Despite war's ravage.

        "Make treason odious?" My friends, you'll find
        You can't, in right and reason,
        While "Washington" and "treason" are combined--
        "Hugo" and "treason."

        All human governments must take the chance
        And hazard of sedition.
        O, wretch! to pledge your manhood in advance
        To blind submission.

        It may be wrong, it may be right, to rise
        In warlike insurrection:
        The loyalty that fools so dearly prize
        May mean subjection.

        Be loyal to your country, yes--but how
        If tyrants hold dominion?
        The South believed they did; can't you allow
        For that opinion?

        He who will never rise though rulers plods
        His liberties despising
        How is he manlier than the _sans culottes_
        Who's always rising?

        Give back the foolish flags whose bearers fell
        Too valiant to forsake them.
        Is it presumptuous, this counsel? Well,
        I helped to take them.
        Michael A. Schaffner

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Return Our Flags

          Call Minnesota and ask them how Alabama made out with that Marshall Sherman thing. There's legal prescidence(sp); those flags were fairly won from a country that no longer exists; they're staying where they are.
          [FONT="Book Antiqua"]"Grumpy" Dave Towsen
          Past President Potomac Legion
          Long time member Columbia Rifles
          Who will care for Mother now?[/FONT]

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Return Our Flags

            To the victor goes the spoils.

            I'm still waiting for the day when someone demands that a collector give a period image of an ancestor claiming it's family property. That is if it has not already happened. ~Gary
            Gary Dombrowski
            [url]http://garyhistart.blogspot.com/[/url]

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Return Our Flags

              I understand Mr. Roberts’ point that if it’s not being taken care of give it to someone that will, but then I would have to say give it to the state of Ohio or the Federal Gov. It is their property to do with as they please. And if they do give Tennessee the flags back that’s all fine and well, but the state of Tennessee has no right to demand anything. After all the government and many of the citizens of Tennessee committed treason.

              I have to agree with Mr. Corbett nearly 150 years later does it really matter now? And by this same thought process should we then give back all the loot taken from the Japanese and Germans during WWII how about the artifacts stolen from Egypt and Rome? This is the point of having museums so that we don’t have to travel long distances to see artifacts.

              Marvin
              Marvin Greer
              Snake Nation Disciples

              "Now bounce the Bullies!" -- Lt. David Cornwell 9th Louisiana Colored Troops, Battle of Milliken's Bend.

              sigpic

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Return Our Flags

                Collecting flags is not a one-sided thing Mr. Corbett. It will be a cold day in hell when we return those yankee flags we have.

                Joe Walker

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Return Our Flags

                  Well some may argue that it was a matter of the 59th Congress to return the flags of Union and Confederate forces back to the states from which the regiments who served under the flag came from.

                  However, the main thing of concern here seems to be locating the flags and returning them to a museum (not a private collector) whose goal in the return quest seems to be telling a story of Tennessee in the Civil War. I did not see Mr. Biggs arguing that he should personally own them or that the South will rise again. So let us all remember that of utmost concern is IF the flags exist anymore then we want them to be cared for in the best manner possible. The modern politics of the Confederate flag is not an issue for the Civil War Preservation forum.
                  Sincerely,
                  Emmanuel Dabney
                  Atlantic Guard Soldiers' Aid Society
                  http://www.agsas.org

                  "God hasten the day when war shall cease, when slavery shall be blotted from the face of the earth, and when, instead of destruction and desolation, peace, prosperity, liberty, and virtue shall rule the earth!"--John C. Brock, Commissary Sergeant, 43d United States Colored Troops

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Return Our Flags

                    Gents,
                    These flags of tattered cloth that stood for a cause on both sides are just that, tattered cloth. It wasn't the flag per say but the blood of the men that stood and died underneath them. They gave the last full measure. They do not belong in someones closet, in a box in the attic or over someones dinning room table. They belong to the American people. So future generations can see what can happen when the wheels of war start to turn, they are hard to stop. Where are the artifacts and flags that were in the old G-Burg museum? In someones cellar? They are spoils of war, just tattered spoils. People have to do the right thing, or do they?

                    My 2 cents
                    Art Stone
                    13th N.J.V.
                    Co."K"
                    " Rally, Boys Rally"
                    Last order from Cpt. H.C. Irish at Antietam

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Return Our Flags

                      If the flags still exist, hopefully they will be found and put on display. The issue of whether or not flags should or should not be returned reminds me of the area of collecting Soviet awards and medals. Many of these can be traced to the awardee by serial number, and currently the Russian government takes a dim view of exporting these out of the former Soviet Union under their Cultural Resources law.

                      Roy Queen

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Return Our Flags

                        Here are a few more words of wisdom from Bierce, taken from The Devil's Dictionary:

                        FLAG, n.
                        A colored rag borne above troops and hoisted on forts and ships. It appears to serve the same purpose as certain signs that one sees on vacant lots in London -- "Rubbish may be shot here."


                        That said, he supported returning the Confederate flags to those who treasured them, not least in the spirit of national harmony.

                        If he could feel that way after taking a shot to the head at Kennesaw Mountain, it's hard for me to disagree.
                        Michael A. Schaffner

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Return Our Flags

                          Call Minnesota and ask them how Alabama made out with that Marshall Sherman thing.
                          Grumpy, that would be the 28th Va. flag. I've seen it up close. It's very well taken care of.
                          Rob Murray

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Return Our Flags

                            I would like to know if the 28 North Carolina Infantry flag is still around? It was taken at Gettysburg on the third day during the charge.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Return Our Flags

                              Never mind, after I asked the question, I Googled it...

                              Comment

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