Announcement

**BHoover** · 02-16-2004, 09:45 PM

Re: Is anyone shocked?

Not a direct answer to your question, but related I think. The person who started our unit years ago is also very big in the SCV. He told me that he had thought the SCV would be a great place to recruit new reenactors but it turned out to be not true. There's just not a huge overlap. SCV members obviously have an interest in the war, but many could care less about reenacting, or at least about reenacting authentically.

I wonder if the same is true for people that joing a CWRT or a preservation group? Perhaps the common interest in the history of the war doesn't translate into other interests. SCVs will honor their ancestors, CWRT will study history, reenactors will do LH, preservationists will raise money and awareness. Sure there is some overlap but apparently not as much as one might think.

**Kevin O'Beirne** · 02-16-2004, 10:14 PM

Re: Is anyone shocked?

Dusty,

I think reenacting and preservation are two different areas of interest. While there's no reason why there can't be overlap, long ago (long before I got into "campaigning") I came to the conclusion that reenactors in general don't feel all that strongly toward preservation. I suppose a vast majority of reenactors morally support preservation, but a simiilar vast majority can't be bothered to actually DO something about it.

My former "mainstream" unit used to have 120 members and big fat treasury. I earnestly believe that the only money they ever gave to preservation was $50 in the mid-1990s when a local reenactor died of cancer and the unit donated to APCWS in his name, and when in 2000 (when I had already left) I sent them a letter asking for $100 for the Bentonville preservation march and they actually anted up and send a check to me payable to the friends of Bentonville or whoever it was supposed to be payable to. That's $150 in the 11 or so years was in or have known about that unit, and in that period literally tens of thousands of dollars have gone through their treasury. I remember in the spring of 2000 they spent $600 of unit money to rent a horse-drawn carriage to draw their civilian members in the Buffalo St. Patrick's Day parade, and yet only coughed up a fraction of that for presrvation. Shows where their priorities lay. And truth be told, I doubt they are that different from the majority of reenactment groups out there.

And of course, a number of groups do some wonderful work at preservation, but I believe they are in the minority.

**DougCooper** · 02-17-2004, 12:44 AM

Re: Is anyone shocked?

Dusty - My attitude is basically this: It is not about us...its about the original soldiers. Not good or bad or right or wrong, just me.

Kevin is right above, the two terms are not inherently overlapped.

One area that really hurts us is the lack of respect that the vast majority of the hobby receives from the public at large - this greatly hampers our efforts. To be effective we must be seen as serious historians, and right now that is tenuous at best. Most folks see us a yahoos with an agenda or at best, the fringe of serious history. We may be more authentic than the majority but that difference is missed by the public.

I think we have to be careful how we define support for preservation. We tend to focus on raising money or giving money. That is just part of it. Raising authenticity is part of it as well - and with it better education into the real life of the soldier, both for us and the public. That has the effect of perhaps making the public care a little more about it. Going into schools, cleaning grave markers, and a hundred other activities could be construed as assisting with preservation by raising awareness.

I imagine some of the folks who answered the poll do some of the above, but do not see the connection. Many more folks did not answer the poll who are also involved at some level. The vast majority of Americans do not donate to anything, with the possible exception of church. We reflect that to an extent.

Having said that, I have been extremely impressed with the support Mansfield has received from folks all over the map, including England and every corner of this country. We have folks donating time, money and soon shoe leather who are unemployed, young, old, reenactors, vendors, folks who will be at the event, most who will not, and some who have no connection to the hobby at all...and the messages they have been sending all have one theme:

"Thanks for your help saving the battlefield...hope this little bit helps." Most don't care if they win the raffle...they just want to do something.

They number in the hundreds so far. Many of them probably did not answer the poll.

But Dusty like you, it does seem strange that some folks should work so hard at emulating the experience of the original soldiers, and yet not share the idea that preserving that experience through saving the ground they fought on is important. Like you, I would have thought campaigners would naturally care about such things, and then be willing to work together to that end.

One thing the 1039 members of this forum are not is united or remotely homogeneous. If anything we have more things dividing us than uniting us.

As you have seen in the poll, some members of this forum will support any preservation effort, whether they are going or not. Some will support the effort if they are going to the event. Others will only support a preservation events they are in charge of. And most disturbing, a very small number have even actively worked against events whose stated main goal is preservation. We don't need that...we have developers to do that.

Thanks to those who are doing something every day, often with very little resources, to help. It's not just money...its networking, organizing and motivating others to care...lobbying if you will. Its taking action on everything from cleaning and replacing graves to writing letters to elected officials. We need to be seen as a force multiplier by CWPT, et al, not as a distraction. Its changing, but slowly. We have a leadership role.

My great hope is that future events will generate the preservation money not just from raffles or small donations from within the ranks...but come from business and civic organizations who see us as serious historians who seek to bring the past alive in order to save it...and are worthy of supporting with serious dollars.

Hurry that day.

**ewtaylor** · 02-17-2004, 02:35 AM

Re: Is anyone shocked?

Actually at this very moment I'm spearheading an effort to save what is left of Camp Buckner in SE Kentucky. It is located on State Park land and i have met with the management over this. We are jointly trying to gather money (about $5000) to put up a few plaques, walking trail, picnic tables, and an area for LH. This is my first ever attempt at preserving a historical site.
ewtaylor
bluegrass rifles

***Michael Semann*** · 02-17-2004, 02:47 AM

Re: Is anyone shocked?

I don't think that what happened on the "Other" board is quite the scandalous outrage and slap in the face of History that has been made of it. As an original member of the OT board, and one of the disgruntled people you have referred to, I will tell you that I donate freely to many charities, not the least of which are numerous preservation and heritage groups. I make an effort to donate to those I feel are really making a difference and organizations I believe in, not every charity du jour that comes my way.

I will not be "strong armed" into donating to absolutely EVERYONE who has his hand out, however. As much as I enjoy shooting the breeze on that board, I am sure I don't have to tell you that it is basically a bull crap, kick your feet back and let the BS flow kind of board, and certainly not anything approaching a scholarly Civil War affair.

I don't think it reasonable to pay a "Toll" to listen to a few tall tales, with irreverence at the forefront of nearly every post. If we were to do that with every site we visit, and asks for money, EVERY time it happens, few of us would have a pot to pee in, let alone give to worthy causes of our OWN choice and free will.

Many of us out here have to pick and choose with some care what we can support, and still make a living. And yes, there is also the principal of the thing.

Is this being unreasonable?

**CJDaley** · 02-17-2004, 07:22 AM

Re: Is anyone shocked?

I think part of the problem is that most of us feel helpless and have the thought of "but what can my $5 really do?".

Let's face it, I thought the same way in 1994 when Disney was moving to Northern VA. I thought "How can the preservationists compete with the army of attorneys that Disney is sending up here?" I was wrong and it changed my thinking about what a small group of people can do. It's been 10 years since that near disaster, but I think people have forgotten about the victory we had. In the end, that letter to your politician or that $5 bill DOES go a long way.

Another part of the problem is the overall depressing nature of the presevation movement. I think most people come to this forum to escape their jobs, the news and life in general. When they come here, they don't want to be reminded of the destruction of our heratige.

SOLUTION: The only solution I can come up with is to make membership in the CVBT, CWPT, National Trust or other preservation group a requirement of being a forum member. It's free to come here and post or read these forums, but I think we could each kick in $35 annually to become a member of one of these organizations and in return get to use these forums for 12 months. Of course implimenting and enforcing this solution would be a logistical nightmare.

Perhaps for now, I'll just ask everyone today to click this link, get out your credit cards and join today. http://www.cwpt.org/mem.htm (You call Hoffman and I on a daily basis buying gear so I know you are capable of doing taking 5 minutes out to do this for battlefields. :wink_smil )

I want my son to visit the same historic sites I enjoyed as a kid, but I can't make him a promise today that they'll still be here when he's my age.

**trippcor** · 02-17-2004, 08:06 AM

Re: Is anyone shocked?

Something else to consider is what one defines as helping preservation. Requiring people to belong to some specific preservation group is a little norrow sighted. There is more than one way to support preservation. I have donated many many hours to parks and museums for events designed specifically to help them raise money and awareness. I believe this helps preservation as much as sending money directly to them or through some national organization. This is something most reenactors can do even if they are lacking funds and still support preservation.

With any fund raising effort, I don't like to give money to big organizations because so often most of the money donated goes to cover admin cost. I would much rather support smaller local efforts.

That is my 2 cents.

**dusty27** · 02-17-2004, 08:35 AM

Re: Is anyone shocked?

Many of you have hit on something that I should have hit on in my original post. The fact that giving money is NOT the only way to help preservation. In hindsight, there should have been an option on the poll for volunteering at a site.

As many have said, volunteering time and energy are very important aspects of preservation. All too often, budgetary cuts hit our parks first, so by holding voluntary living histories at parks, you are allowing the parks to continue their mission at no expense to them.

Michael, you're right about not having to pay for the forum. I don't want to come across as someone who is trying to beat the money out of people. I don't think it was a big deal either, but from some of the posts over there, you have to admit that some people took it as someone taking there rights away.

As some of you know, my old signature line read "$5, every time". In theory, if everyone on this forum donated $5 to every cause put forward on the board; i.e. rail drive, marches, Mansfield, then we could raise $6500. For a total of $15 per person, per year, this board itself could raise nearly $20,000 a year for preservation. That's less than most registration fees are nowadays. This is what Chris was talking about above. Just some numbers to think about.

Thanks for the input so far. Keep 'em comin'.

**Charlie** · 02-17-2004, 09:50 AM

Re: Is anyone shocked?

Chris,
Well said. It's a small price to pay to access these forums. People who spend $200 on a sack coat or $400 on a great coat can certainly afford $35, which will go to what we all know will be a good and worthy cause. I would say this definitely fall under the umbrella of "Put your money where your mouth is". We all talk a good game, but I know that for myself, It has been easier to talk and complain about the state of preservation than to actually do something about it.
I am going to your preservation link today.
Chris, thanks for laying it out in black and white.
Just my two cents (that I am donating to preservation today)

**ElizabethClark** · 02-17-2004, 10:15 AM

Re: Is anyone shocked?

In an area like ours, the simple Existance of history is large ignored, let alone there being any battle to preserve things--which surprised me greatly, as many here are very into family heritage. They just never stop and think what all that heritage entails!

For instance, just south of us is Fort Hall; it was a major stop on the Oregon Trail in the 40s and 50s. It is currently a reservation. Rather than take the opportunity to promote native history, the migration conflicts, etc, with accurately dressed tribal volunteers and "white" volunteers, the board controlling the land has made a nifty gift shop, and called that preservation; most of the items in the gift shop were made in Taiwan, and encourage the visitor to also visit the local casino.

That's considered history.

So, the main effort in our own area for preservation is simple Education That History Exists.

One project I had a lot of fun with was a doll raffle a few years back, to benefit McDowell. The doll went around to various folks in the country, who made (in the majority of cases) period-appropriate goodies for her, and the final doll and belongings kit was raffled off. Sure, the results were small potatoes compared to the real amount of money that is needed to preserve the past, but those were small potatoes that otherwise wouldn't have been there.

I see any apathy for preservation tied directly to the general apathy in the nation: how many folks excercise one of our fundamental rights as citizens to be an informed voter? How many get off their hind ends with any regular effort and do things to make their modern community stronger, or life better for others? It's a general trend toward selfishness, and I'd love to reverse it. That effort has to start with myself and my own family; hopefully, I can help it spread beyond the walls of my home, and "infect" others.

**markmason** · 02-17-2004, 11:05 AM

Re: Is anyone shocked?

Registrations for "preservation events" are donations towards preservation in itself. That being said, some may consider this to be a way to help. When we toss in fence rail drives, marches for preservation, $20-30 EBUFU fees for registration and rations &c &c (all very good ideas) it starts to add up in ones pocket book. Some can give and keep on giving, while others barely muster enough funds together to have a sufficient kit enough to meet and adhere to the set standards at a preservation backed authentic event. In the latter example, this fella is contributing to preservation just by being there and paying their dues.

It would be nice to see EVERY reenactor, living historian, FARB, camper, SCV, SUV, &c &c donate a one time a year $5 amount to preservation and collect it into one kitty...just imagine how many eyes would open up to see what could be done.

**DougCooper** · 02-17-2004, 02:13 PM

Re: Is anyone shocked?

Mark - good point and precisely why I have been struggling to get to the real money in the hands of folks in business with good will to spend.

Tripp better explained a point I was trying to make about all the other ways we can help the effort. The more public we touch with an accurate portrayal of what it was like (one main goal of the AC forum) the more folks will pull out their wallets when we come to them... hard to feel sorry or to identify with a group of folks living out of an RV and a wall tent. It is no accident that large preservation initiatives never seem to be lead by the mainstream groups with big war chests - no reason it should be that way but maybe there is something to the campaigner/preservationist link.

A revealing comment that illustrates this (that I had forgotten about until this discussion), came to me at a typical large event famous for the extraordinary amount of amenities and canvas on site. We campaigners were lounging in position trying to keep the sun off when a spectator simply asked - "so how did they really live?" About that time we saw some authentic soldiers wandering through the crowd with hats in hand asking for donations. Turned out it was the Southern Guard. The spectator said something to the effect that if he gave money to us where would it go? We replied "APCWS will use it to buy the land the soldiers died on." That was good enough and he sped off to donate.

Chris is right too when he says we are sometimes not sure where our money goes our how to explain it.

CWPT, etc does that for us - and it is to the great credit of Dusty and Matt and others that keeps us informed on here not only of the threats, but of the victories too. Perhaps it is time to recap some of our greatest triumphs.

Because of the hard work of a lot of folks there is no Disney Historyland, there is no Formula 1 racetrack on Brandy Station, there is no mall on Second Manassas, no "mixed use" mess at Chancellorsvile (yet), and there are pieces of a hundred hallowed places that are preserved. And lots of folks from all corners appear ready to show up at places like Mansfield to make a difference. We tend to deal with the closest alligator to the canoe and may miss the small victories and threats far from Washington. I hope somebody puts up a plaque every time we win one - like the one that will hopefully be standing next to the new fence at Pickett's Mill - "This fence was paid for and built by Civil War Living Historians in gratitude for the sacrifice of Americans North and South who struggled here." or better words to that effect.

That is where the hard work of the type Tripp is talking about generates more interest on the part of civic, government and fraternal organizations to assist the parks, the preservation groups and the living historians. Its the "raising awareness" piece. And every time we do an authentic living history event at a threatened park (or one not yet established) or school event, etc, we influence both sides of the preservation coin - those with money to donate and those whose job it is to lead the effort such as CWPT. We need to show CWPT and other hard working groups that we are important allies in this effort. Joining is another good way to do that, joining and getting others to join is even better :)

It's hard work, sometimes frustrating and often a long lead time to see results...but as Chris says, sure will be nice some day to walk along the fence at Pickett's Mill or the battle lines at Mansfield and Chancelorsville and be able to tell your kids "my friends helped save this place so we could visit today."

If you are looking for long term meaning in this hobby, it can't get much better than that.

**theknapsack** · 02-17-2004, 02:14 PM

Re: Is anyone shocked?

Thanks to all who have been doing all that they can for battlefields. I think what we all need to do is to donate money, and sign petitions and send letters to politicians about something like the Mansfield problems. For those units that have meetings together, put together money and donate it to a battlefield as a unit. This all helps. Thanks again to those who have been doing this for our country's historical sites. I'm still trying to do this and anyone who can give any good organizations or anything please shoot me an e-mail
Sam_vvise@yahoo.com (w is two v's)

Thanks,

**K Bartsch** · 02-17-2004, 04:56 PM

Re: Is anyone shocked?

Given: Preservation of battlefields and historic sites is vital and worthy of our best efforts to fund it.

At the risk of oversimplifying the matter, here's the problem as I see it. There are simply too many causes, at too many levels. Allow me to explain, using an example. Before the days of the United Way, folks were being constantly hit up by every charitable and/or worthy non-profit out there from the "ASPCA" to the "Zookeepers League" (probably no such org, but I couldn't think of one that started with a Z :wink_smil )

Okay, enter the United Way (and for federal employees, the Combined Federal Campaign.) Now they hit us up ONCE a year, and the monies are distributed reasonably equitably according to some sort of established protocol. That said, a person can designate all his/her donated dollars go to specific activity, but to date, most still leave it up to the United Way to cut up the pie. (Makes no difference to me what folks do, I'm just proud they donate, but I designated my CFC contribution this year to the CWPT.)

I feel such a thing could work for preservation, and would do much to counter "donation fatigue" we all feel as we are repeatedly approached from many quarters for very worthy preservation causes.

Another aspect of this could be solved by a national level combined preservation campaign. Specifically the fact that for most folks, the most important preservation project is the one in their backyard. Personally, the fight to save Morris Island is at the top of my personal list, but I know the folks desperately working to save Mansfield feel as much passion about "their" site as I do "mine". There are probably hundreds of others we'll never hear about. A national-level organization which had the full-time staff and resources to objectively evaluate the situation, and make sound spending decisions based on a variety of factors to include state of distress, level of developmental threat, cost-benefit anaylsis, etc. would be a major step forward.

Finally, I believe that such a national-level organization could serve to shed some light on the murkiness which sometimes envelopes the mega-event organizers when they claim such-and-such a percentage of the profits go to "preservation." All they'd really need to do under the plan I propose is to pass that published percentage of the profit to the national preservation organization and we'd all know excatly where the money went.

To bring this full circle, we all know there is a national-level Civil War preservation organization in existence with a superb reputation for political clout and stewardship of our preservation dollars. Further, the 2005 President's Budget even has a provision for federal matching funds for the dollars CWPT spends. It just seems to me if eveyrone were willing to throw-in with the CWPT, and insist that event organizers made their donations to this organization, we could all rest in the knowledge we were probably getting the most bang for our buck, and a crack staff were working OUR issues full-time.

Again, I apologize if I've oversimplified the problem. There are probably facets
of the issue I missed completely, but I feel wholesale support for the CWPT is probably very near the answer.

Just my two cents,

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