Baltimore City Commission Recommends Removal of Two Confederate Monuments

[john duffer]

Re: Baltimore City Commission Recommends Removal of Two Confederate Monuments

I don't see anyone bulldozing the Alamo, John -- the rental car company has too much political clout. But maybe they'll put up a historical marker a few blocks away where most of the defenders were cut down trying to escape...

At last an eyewitness account

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Baltimore City Commission Recommends Removal of Two Confederate Monuments

At last an eyewitness account

I was trying to catch a cab there when it happened. Brutal, I tell you...brutal...

[rbrewer]

Re: Baltimore City Commission Recommends Removal of Two Confederate Monuments

I have a few thoughts on this thread
I agree w/ Mr Tipton , reenactments and living history's are " fair" game now that the war on American History has heated up.
Mr Duffer is correct, one statue taken down may be hard, but the 2nd and 3rd will be easier
I imagine King George considered George Washington , the founding fathers and our army to be committing treason.Our original states formed under the Articles of Confederation, ( many of the founding fathers owned slaves) should we cancel July the 4th ?
Some trivia about the Lee Jackson Monument, as best as I understand, Nancy Pelosi's father was a keynote speaker at it's dedication ((Nancy's dad- Thomas D'Alesandro was a Baltimore big shot and former Congressman) if Nancy attended, I doubt she'd be bragging about it. This link shows some of the anti American History crowd at work- protesting the Lee/ Jackson monument and making life miserable for a couple of local CWRT members( https://youtu.be/8-6x6X3lDds).
The Army Corps of Engineers site shows Robert E Lee as the supervising engineer for Fort Carroll, near Baltimore, maybe Fort Carroll should be razed due to it's ties to white supremacy and for glorifying slavery.
As far as WWII monuments , the USMC Iwo Jima monument has plenty of baggage- it's in your face firearms send the wrong message to our young people, no doubt the anti gun crowd would insist that the weapons be removed and stored safely, no sense the granite M-1's could be used for committing crimes. Many on the left insist that FDR worked to deprive the Japanese of crude oil because he was racist- the Jap's were after all -people of color- this begs for tearing down the FDR Monument. A heinous feature of the monument is a quote from an FDR speech: " I hate war"- this type of hate speech/ mongering should be wiped from the face of the earth
Not sure I've seen a monument glorifying slavery-
a) The Forrest statue pre dates many of those who moved to Memphis- this statue should have been a prominent feature of any home settlement, and should be addressed by HUD, the DOJ and rainbow coalition ( among others),if Forrest and his wife are to be exhumed, OSHA excavation safety requirements should followed.
b) The African slave trade originated on African soil, maybe the offending African Country's complicit w/ selling other Africans should take down all their statues.
Once the Dylan Roof trial starts this summer- expect the anti history/American hysteria to reach a fever pitch- hold on to your hat( CS styled hats may be the next target).
Bob Brewer
Gaithersburg,MD

[Michael Shea]

Re: Baltimore City Commission Recommends Removal of Two Confederate Monuments

Gentlemen you are missing the biggest elephant in Baltimore. There is a giant monument to a group of men who fought for a slave holding nation against a nation that had abolished slavery. In fact this monument was immortalized by a man who owned slaves and who actively sought to expel freed slaves from the US back to Africa. This monument occupies many acres of choice waterfront. Should it be destroyed and turned into something else? Should the man who immortalized this place and its banner be called a racist? Should his anthem be banned?

Submitted for your respectful consideration I remain,
Michael Shea

[Jayhawker Jake]

Re: Baltimore City Commission Recommends Removal of Two Confederate Monuments

All of the "they'll ban this next" fear mongering is getting out of hand. Let's look at the two statues that are in question here. First, we have one to Roger B. Taney. Dred Scott was a horrible decision, directly led to the Civil War, and trampled all over the very "States' Rights" the South would claim it was fighting for. We don't erect monuments to people to highlight their flaws or bad decisions, we do so because we, as a people, feel they are worthy of being immortalized in that way, and have put them quite literally on a pedestal. Taney most certainly does not deserve that. His decision is one of the worst in the history of the SCOTUS, and if he is to be remembered, it should be for that horrible decision. Statues aren't how you do that, and the one in question most certainly doesn't.

Second, we have the Statue of Lee and Jackson. As has already been discussed, neither have any real connection with Baltimore. What's important to remember with this statue is that it's not going to be torn down, but rather they are offering it to the US Park service in Chancellorsville. I don't know about you, but that seems like a perfect arrangement, and far more fitting than its current location in Baltimore.

History is not being whitewashed, and nothing is being banned. One statue, of a man who most certainly does not merit a statue, is being removed, while another, to a pair of men who do deserve statues, is being moved to a place that better fits their history. At no point with these decisions has it been suggested that everyone who owned slaves should have their statues torn down, or should be vilified.

[Eric Tipton]

The Time is Now

Jacob:

With all due respect, if you are only taking into consideration this thread and these specific statues, then you are entirely missing the big picture.

The Authentic Campaigner waited six months to really come out on the issue of monuments and statues and this was only after a lot of internal discussion and careful consideration. We have watched as numerous statues, monuments, graveyards and buildings have been discussed. We have watched graves interred and the vandalism of graveyards. Your response encompasses two statues and one thread. Here is another thread we posted recently. The Civil War Trust, not exactly a radical political organization, has started a petition:

Click Here For the Civil War Trust Petition Thread

Here is Their Statement:

There is no denying that over the past few months, ever since the tragic church shooting in Charleston, South Carolina, passions are running high on the issue of how we as a nation should remember our history.

To the Civil War Trust, just as our country’s battlefields are a part of American history, the soldiers who fought on both sides of the war are part of that history, and the memorials erected to honor fallen comrades and friends are part of that history. They must be preserved.

Those past generations, North and South, often paid for these memorials out of their own pockets because they believed it was essential to transmit a crucial message to all future generations.

They wanted their sacrifices remembered. They wanted opportunities for reflection upon the time in this country when the passions of the hour divided us, and more than 620,000 lives were lost, a number that, were a war of the same magnitude fought today, would cost over 6 million lives.

We believe it is important that our country continue to preserve and protect these monuments to generations past who sacrificed all to create the nation we are today. If you agree, please take a moment to sign our petition, respectfully urging Congressional leaders to safeguard America’s war memorials.

If you read through that thread, you will see that we gathered articles from several different sources, which demonstrate the widespread nature of the movement that we face:

Georgetown Church Starts Petition to Remove Confederate Monument

Confederate Monuments in Baltimore Could be Removed

Stone Mountain Petition Stokes Controversy; Georgia Man Wants Confederate Monument Remade

William & Mary Drops a Confederate Emblem and Moves a Plaque

Nearly 200 Schools Are Named for Confederate Leaders. Is It Time to Rename Them?

Board Votes to Remove Confederate Monument from Linn Park

If you do a simple Google search, you will find that there are many other situations that are not mentioned here. In fact, I think I saw something about Sam Houston and the Alamo just this morning.

As we have pointed out on Facebook, our position on this is simple:

As modern living historians who objectively study the Civil War, we are bound to protect the whole fabric of Civil War history, not just the pieces. There is a modern political movement to "remove" reminders of history, whether they are names of buildings, streets or statues and monuments. If we allow these modern politics to fragment the hobby, it will be at our own peril. One of the most destructive things that has happened to our hobby with the proliferation of social media is that we now find ourselves, because of modern politics, at odds over what is essentially preservation. If preservation has become a dirty word within our own ranks, where do we go from there?

At some point, a line has to be drawn by our community. Three months ago, the preeminent Civil War Preservation Organization felt it was proper to respond to this issue. After six months of watching things snowball, the Authentic Campaigner has decided to join the fight in earnest as well.

Respectfully Submitted,

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Baltimore City Commission Recommends Removal of Two Confederate Monuments

"Our community" is, by and large, neither united on what is essentially a contemporary political controversy, nor qualified to second-guess localities struggling to deal with what in many cases are vestiges of the white supremacy movement.

Stone Mountain is a great example. That started and continued for many years as a playground for the KKK. The bas relief has some artistic value, but certainly no more than the Haus der Kunst did in Munich. The current legislation to simply allow a counterbalancing monument for the sake of inclusion is almost literally the least the state of Georgia can do.

Too many reenactors conflate a pre-occupation with material culture with a knowledge of the civil war, and feel no responsibility for recognizing what happened in its aftermath. Here's a good chaser for that: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...902_story.html

The period from the 1890s through the 1930s that the editorial considers the height of white supremacist oppression was also the period in which many of the now controversial monuments were erected. We can say, well, that's history too, but it raises another question. Do we have an iron-clad obligation to maintain in perpetuity memorials that have less to do with the civil war than with the racist laws, policies, and violence that followed a generation after?

We're not going to "erase history." We're not ninth century Mayans who will lose our "history" if somebody levels the pyramid with all the glyphs. The people of eastern Europe know as much about Lenin as they did when they had statues of him in every town square and busts in every office. We're pretty up on Napoleon over here even though he doesn't dominate many town squares. Don't worry about history. Worry about people who confuse statues with it.

I don't oppose all Confederate memorials or even most of them. But there are countless thousands all over the country, each of which have their own history and deserve to be treated individually, neither condemned nor defended en masse.

But I do wish someone would warehouse the Jackson statue at Manassas. That thing makes him look like a cross between Mussolini and the Amazing Hulk with a Confederate uniform spray painted over his bulging musculature. It's not a monument to Jackson so much as a fevered worship-dream from the SCV. And it dates to 1940.

On second thought, maybe it's good to balance the hero worship with something that self-parodying. Just don't pretend it's sacred or that it's like any thing else out there.

[Michael Shea]

Re: Baltimore City Commission Recommends Removal of Two Confederate Monuments

Mr. Schaffner,

But erasing history is exactly the intent. No one is suggesting replacing poorly executed works (and you are right - I have a list myself…). The impetus is to make sure that no one sees Robert E. Lee as a heroic (or even a decent) man and that anything associated with the Confederacy is anathema. Removing statues of Chief Justice Taney (not a Confederate and a man who freed his own slaves) and teaching generations of students that he was a monster who decided that Africans were subhuman is erasing and rewriting history.

Why did the men who fought so hard to destroy the Confederacy tolerate so much respect for Lee, Jackson etc. etc. and yet today people cannot stand the sight of their images? If Sherman could be a pallbearer for Joe Johnston why can't the people of Baltimore accept the tumultuous, fascinating history of their own city? Maybe we ought to stage a re-enactment of one of the Gettysburg reunions where men who really did fight with each other shook hands and parted friends - that would really baffle a lot of people.

Of course this really is a contemporary issue - but it stems from a misguided attempts to use history as propaganda. We ought to at least stand up for the history and let the politicians figure out other ways to entertain their constituents.

Respectfully yours,
Michael Shea

[roundshot]

Re: Baltimore City Commission Recommends Removal of Two Confederate Monuments

Bravo, Mr. Shea.

[john duffer]

Re: Baltimore City Commission Recommends Removal of Two Confederate Monuments

Bravo, Mr. Shea.

I agree completely except I believe it was Johnston that was a pallbearer for Sherman :).

[rbrewer]

Re: Baltimore City Commission Recommends Removal of Two Confederate Monuments

( mods- if this doesn't work for this thread, please delete)
Here in MD, the longtime U of MD stadium name has offended some. See the link below for detail's. We're in the midst of cultural cleansing.
Don't be surprised if photo's of someone ( unit website/ facebook/ CW News...) in CS uniform or in proximity of a battle flag gets them turned down for a job, security clearance, condo etc ,

http://www.wusa9.com/story/news/local/2015/04/09/byrd-stadium-renaming-university-maryland-students/25511345/

Bob Brewer
Gaithersburg,MD

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Baltimore City Commission Recommends Removal of Two Confederate Monuments

I agree completely except I believe it was Johnston that was a pallbearer for Sherman :).

And Lee and Jackson were no more a part of the "tumultuous, fascinating history" of Baltimore than either of them. :)

[john duffer]

Re: Baltimore City Commission Recommends Removal of Two Confederate Monuments

And Lee and Jackson were no more a part of the "tumultuous, fascinating history" of Baltimore than either of them. :)

Sorry, guess geography isn't my strong suit - I thought Baltimore was in the United States.

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Baltimore City Commission Recommends Removal of Two Confederate Monuments

Seems the word "hysteria" was used earlier in this thread.

Our initiative here at the A-C includes museums.
...and so it begins:

http://charlestoncurrents.com/2016/01/brack-why-do-we-even-need-a-confederate-relic-room/

[Ken Cornett]

Re: Baltimore City Commission Recommends Removal of Two Confederate Monuments

Yeah Wick, Tyler put this up on FB earlier and it really just hit me the wrong way. I have been there a couple of times and have found it to be a first rate museum. This guy is simply stirring the pot for name recognition or something. Johnny gave his two cents which was interesting. Wow.