Interstate 81 Lawsuit

[Wild Rover]

Re: Interstate 81 Lawsuit

Guys,

Let me make this clear, I am 300% against losing any open space, battlefields or not, as I am an avid hunter as well as reenactor.

But I also live in 2008, not 186X, and realize that 99.9% of this country does as well. Most of the country lives in cities, and many folks have taken the lifestyle of picking up food each day on the way home to cook that night, if they do not eat out.

I live in the country, I have about a years worth of food in deep freezers, root cellars and cabinets. I also travel a ton, to large cities and metropolitan areas, I see what folks do. I do not agree with them, but accepting that others do not think as you do is the first step in understanding any issue.

I also be that there are probably 10 people in my office right now that do not have 72 hours worth of food in thier house.

The problem often arise that the main reason certain places are battlefields are that they in high traveled areas, thus making them vunerable to development. And most folks couldn't care less if they bulldoze a battlefield to ease transportation of goods if it drops thier X price 2 cents per Y.

Really, that is the real world.

All we can do is continue to educate, and advocate smart growth.

We are in a scary world, the population is growing at record rate, these folks need to live somewhere, shop somewhere, work somewhere and be logistically provided for by our infrastucture. And Infrastructure that is aging rapidly, and needs a major overhaul in many areas. Ground is not being created anymore, and hasn't been for over 6,000 years, making it the hotest item on the market. Capitalists see it as a way to provide for themselves and thier families and yes, often they get real greedy, too greedy. They buy up farms, bust them up into housing developments, and bingo, no more battlefields, hunting land, whatever.

The housing crises has stopped most of the speculation in my area right now, but I can hear the rumble of a market getting ready to take off again in a year or so. My best friends from High School/College are worth over 40 mill right now do to ground speculation...try to argue with them about preserving this or that sometime.....its just downright painful to see the greed some folks have.

Hopefully the local governments will have real planners working overtime, trying to create smart growth, and let's face it folks, it is just going to continue.

Am I mad about it? Yes. Real d$$n mad. Can I stop people from breeding? Don't want that job!

In the next decade we have some hard fights in front of us, and we can fight them better if we truly look outside of our little hobby world and understand what the rest of the world thinks. We don't have to agree, or like it, but understanding it is key to future success.

I don't have an answer, just observe and do what I can to preserve every ounce of dirt I can personally.

[Micah Trent]

Re: Interstate 81 Lawsuit

It seems that tolls is the hot answer to any road building projects anymore. It would be bad for travlers, especially those traveling east, say from Kentucky to Maryland or whatever the case maybe. They already have to pay two tolls in West Virginia going on I-64. An hour to an hour and a half later get slammed again for more tolls. I just don't see that as a smart move on VDOT, especially how Virignia promotes tourism.

On another note, it is good to see the different organizations pulling together to try and slow this thing down. I believe if CWPT hasn't stepped in yet, I am sure they are monitoring this very closely.

[Wild Rover]

Re: Interstate 81 Lawsuit

Tolls and Slots are the hot items today. I work with state and Federal governments and sell equipment to them. Let me tell you, they are all broke. They want to buy XYZ, but can't afford to. In fact most are not replacing the positions that are vacated by retiring workers.

I for one am scared.

[Micah Trent]

Re: Interstate 81 Lawsuit

Is there an idea date of when the VDOT plans on starting this project if passed?

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: Interstate 81 Lawsuit

Is there an idea date of when the VDOT plans on starting this project if passed?

Well they've already started in the Lexington and Blacksburg areas!

Oh, and to comment on the idea of an I-81 expansion bringing more jobs to the areas...that's bull! It was the installment of I-81 that destroyed communities, towns and businesses 30+ years ago, when it destroyed the local commerce of the Valley Turnpike~Route 11. Route 11, Lee-Highway, Valley Pike, Old Seneca Indian Trail had been the local route of commerce for well over 400years...

Paul B.

[Wild Rover]

Re: Interstate 81 Lawsuit

Paul,

I think you miss the global impact of highways my friend. My office is exactly 200 yards from the northbound lane of I-81. Out company is located where it is at because of that. It is simple- we have clients all over the globe. They travel to us, and we to them. The ability to get on an interstate and be in the air in less than 2 hours is key to most businesses these days, not to mention the ease of getting clients to your desk. There are times when we are working large deals that I keep a packed suitcase in my jeep.

Inbound and outbound shipping is another reason, but I bet you can follow that line of reasoning. Most companies are like consumers these days, they do not carry on inventory much more than a few weeks worth of parts for XYZ, if even that much....you don't want to get stuck when you obsolete out a product, or have to carry the $ on your books any longer than absolutely neccessary.

That is why companies purchase or lease property off of interstates.

Hope that makes sense.

[Dignann]

Re: Interstate 81 Lawsuit

Chris,

You said:

Pretty soon it will need to be expanded. Yup, it will need to be.

That may not necessarily be the case. The comments of the SVBF, National Trust and others do not say "You can't widen I-81, because there are battlefields here." What the comments say is that the Federal Highways Administration and VDOT have not done a sufficient enough job, in the eyes of these various groups, of evaluating alternatives. Federal law requires that alternatives be considered and seriously weighed against the preferred alternative, in this case widening of the current highway. Federal law also requires that historical resources of national significance, which the battlefields have been determined to be, must also be considered.

In my personal experience with these laws, some agencies do not take them seriously. Federal Highways and the FCC (cell and communications towers) often feel that they are somewhat above the law and at times try to either ignore or avoid these laws that protect historic resources. Believing that they are providing a public service, they frequently fail to recognize the importance of historic resources and try to avoid having to look at alternatives. Let's face it, expanding an existing road is easy, looking at alternative routes takes work and imagination. The preservation organizations are acting as watchdog groups, making sure that the laws are followed. Many of these government agencies are project oriented and fail to look at, or assess, the bigger picture of their undertakings.

I understand what you're saying about highways and transportation routes resulting in growth and perhaps increased economic possibilities for areas through which the roads pass. That can be true for new roads. However, multiple lanes of I-81 already exist. The expansion of them by another lane or two does not necessarily translate into increased economic growth.

The day preservation groups "accept progress" and abandon their watchdog duties is the day that our battlefields and historic sites are doomed.

All of that said, I'm pleased to see that "At High Tide" is donating its proceeds to the Land Conservancy of Adams County. It is a worthy organization that is doing wonderful things to protect the rural landscapes and nature of Adams County, and in the process helping to protect the Gettysburg Battlefield.

Eric

[Wild Rover]

Re: Interstate 81 Lawsuit

Eric,

I agree with you, and I do not want to see things paved over, to be honest whether they are historical or not. I like dirt, I like trees, I love open space.

But I also work in the global business world and see the flip side of the coin.

I wish folks would see both sides at times, it makes for a far more rational and thus succesful argument.

[Dignann]

Re: Interstate 81 Lawsuit

Believe me, Chris, I work with the global business world on a daily basis. I have the unique ability to see both sides of an argument. I just don't agree with one side :)

As a federal employee, and bureaucrat, I also know that the easiest and quickest solution is almost always the preferred one. Imagination comes hard to our kind. Keeping the federal government honest is a full-time job for its citizens.

Anyway, this is turning into somewhat of a philosophical debate, and the thread was intended to keep folks apprised to what is happening in the Valley. So, I'll return it to its intended purpose as an informational outlet.

Eric

[Bob 125th NYSVI]

Re: Interstate 81 Lawsuit

The PROBLEM with alternatives is the government can't force you to use them.

As an example in the 1960s a local passenger train from Altamont NY to downtown Albany took 15 minutes. Today you can't make that trip by car during rush hour in less than 1/2 an hour. Yet when light rail was proposed a couple of years ago for the exact same trip it died form lack of interest on the part of those who would benefit the most, the commuters.

On Long Island, the LIRR moves 200,000 commuters DAILY yet at rush hour all the roads come to standstill because 3 times than number of people refuse to use mass transit.

It is all well and good for politicians to say that we want alternate transportation methods but even if they fund it there is no garrantee that the commuters will come.

And those commuters will vote anyone out of office how doesn't provide them with highways.

So the reality is that th evast majority of commuters (including the peopel on the board) won't use mass transit even if available. And unlike the vast majority of board members the vast majority of people in this country DON'T care about that open field they drive past everyday that might have ONCE been a battlefield.

So this battle should not be about stopping the needed expanson but it shoul dbe about how the expanson can be accomodated with MINIMUM impact to the endangered battlefield. And quite honestly an endangered battlefield in private hands isn't safe either (because the owner can do anything with it they want as long as it is legal) so how do we adress THAT without trampling on land owner's rights.

And Chris is right, your local suppermarket has about 72 hours of food product on hand and the even the ones in a small market like Albany, NY receive at least one truck everyday to replace product sold.

If you don't think America moves it's products by truck you are deluding yourself. The American railroads moved to specializing in bulk products like coal, grain and containers when they realized (after decades of trying) that they could not directly compete with trucking companies for local or even short haul product moves. Especially LCL moves. Trucks are too flexible and too timely for any other transportation entity to compete against for the vast majority of the goods.

[dusty27]

Re: Interstate 81 Lawsuit

And Chris is right, your local suppermarket has about 72 hours of food product on hand and the even the ones in a small market like Albany, NY receive at least one truck everyday to replace product sold.

I'm still curious where this data is stored? Since two people know this, they must be reading the same study, website, gov't report, etc. I'd just like to know where I can get a copy of it. Can someone cite this mysterious source?????:confused_

[Bob 125th NYSVI]

Re: Interstate 81 Lawsuit

I'm still curious where this data is stored? Since two people know this, they must be reading the same study, website, gov't report, etc. I'd just like to know where I can get a copy of it. Can someone cite this mysterious source?????:confused_

What in blazes makes you think EVERYTHING is in some sort of government study.

I just finished a job to work with all the major grocery chains in upstate NY.

It is called 'just-in-time' inventory. Basically most major commodity companies (you know people like GM, Dell, IBM, etc.) decided about 20 years ago that warehousing products was too expensive and not cost efficient.

instead they have arranged with their suppliers to have trucks arrive at the central distribution point no more than a day or two before the product is needed and then it goes out as fast as it can to the actual location where the product is needed.

In the 1970's if you walked into the back of any department store or food store you would have seen hundreds or thousands of square feet of storage space chock full of inventory.

Do it today and you will find almost nothing back there.

In the 1980s they actually started to design stores with almost no stock space.

Trucks arrive virtually everyday (sometimes every other day for smaller stores) from distributors or the company's own warehouse to replenish what the store's computers told the warehouse's computers what was sold.

if you don't beleive us go into your local large grocery store and ask them how many trucks they receive a week and what would happen without them.

[dusty27]

Re: Interstate 81 Lawsuit

Thanks Bob,

Just wanted to know how you knew such things. You explained it well. Sorry I'm not familiar with grocery store inventory levels in upstate NY. I still don't believe that Americans are 72 hours away from FAMINE as stated earlier.

[1stMaine]

Re: Interstate 81 Lawsuit

Bob,

The drawback to that system is the vulnerability of the central warehouse/distrubution center.

That was brought home rather forcefully this past week when the roof of the nearby WalMart distribution center suffered a partial collapse over the refridgerator area. WalMart (up here in Maine) started to tun out of dairy products almost at once, and from other frozen items in the following day or two. The roof collapse was due to snow accumulation. It was partially repaired in order to get things back up and running, when another section collapsed.

There are still too many trucks on the road, and there is NO WAY that the costs associated with those trabsport systems don't offset the costs of stocking items in advance. It is especially difficult to rationalise the continued use of trucks, in ever increasing numbers, against the damage they cause to the highways, damages that all the fees paid still do not adequately address.

Trains are still safer, more economical, and far better than trucks for the movement of goods in vilume. We need to start limiting truck numbers and sizes to those for local use, and transferring the shipping of goods to rail. Use rail to move goods to the local distribution point, and smallr trucks to take it to the stores.

Respects,

[Wild Rover]

Re: Interstate 81 Lawsuit

Tim,

I agree that train travel is chaeper, but having travled by train and been late every single time, I have to say that it cannot be the backbone of our transportation infrastructure.

And unless we live in China or North Korea, MAKING folks use traines is well, an impossibility.

We are a capitalist country, thank God, with free (mostly) enterprise.

When that changes because Big Brother "knows" better, well we have all read that book. Maybe we should again, as we might be needing it in November.

Back to topic, I think there is little we can do to stop growth, in fact we can't. We can just chose the battles we fight, put our critical mass there, and admit we will not win them all. We can't. We don't have the $, political strings or clout, public interest or even the numbers. The key to winning any battle is realizing what "weapon" you have, and using it to its best use.

Pards,