1857 Royal Engineers issue items

[1stMaine]

Comrades,

In light of the documents published to date, I thought that this website I discovered might be of some small value, especially since it shows some of the listed items in color.

http://www.royalengineers.ca/REgear57.html

Respects,

[jacobite8749]

Re: 1857 Royal Engineers issue items

Thank you, a great site, of NO small value.

[1stMaine]

Re: 1857 Royal Engineers issue items

Comrades,

Note especially this quote describing the mess kit:

The semi-cylindrical 3-part mess tin, frequently referred to as a canteen, was 6 inches wide, 4 inches deep, and about 7 inches high. The three nesting parts consisted of a " top part with a handle for drinking, a shallow centre portion which served as a plate, and a deeper 4-inch section with a handle, which was used as a meat container and a billy can for boiling".

Highloghts are added by me. In light of the recent discussions regarding nomenclature, I find this to be germane.

Respects,

[jacobite8749]

Re: 1857 Royal Engineers issue items

As I said before, it was a conclusion that I had reached earlier, as there are no other mention of waterbottles/canteens being sold or sent, and as far as I am aware, in any of Huse's or Isaac & Campbell's lists. Coupled with the fact the British Army had no canteen with a cover until 1880.

The quoted explaination from the Engineers says the same as I had kind of thought. The bit that suprises though, in some ways, is that, Samuel Isaac was a military contractor, but his clerks perhap using "commom" terms. Military of the time tended to use the term "canteen" for waterbottle, (and mess tins for messtins) as they have in the piece you posted and it throws you. I would have thought they would use the same terms of reference as the military, and the references I have quoted come straight out of the 1866 book. Strangely, you do not expect them to use slang (commom terms) as we do when we chop the language to bits.

[erik]

Re: 1857 Royal Engineers issue items

The use of canteen for mess tin is the proper terminology for the British/ Canadian description for the D shaped utensils comprising the soldiers cooking ware. A waterbottle or flask was used to descriobe what the Americans refer to as a canteen.
While official issue of a fabric covered tin vessel used to carry water was not employed until the late 1880's, many flasks of various kinds, tin, glass or ceramic were procured locally throughout the empire to carry water. These vessels were invariably refered to as waterbottles.
Reference may be made to the Tangled Web for Canadian use.
It is alsop a fact that many US pattern canteens were recovered on the beaches of Fort Erie after the Fenian Raid of 1866 and used by members of the Canadian Militia as they were not issued a waterbottle.
In my early years of service in the Canadian Army I had a Sergeant Major who would scream at us when we used the tem canteen for our waterbottles that "A canteen has four walls and they serve beer there, that is A WATERBOTTLE".
As Winston Churchill said we are two peoples divided by a common language. More so as we go back in time.
I have some issues with the kit issue for Engineers as the initial photograph is of an Artilleryman.
While many discussions have appeared about the messtin, canteen, I am not certain that the pasttern shown is correct for the 1860 period. I shall research some and come back on this.
The water proof havresack is strictly related to the Canadian Militia in a post civil war purchase and not British army issue as they were seldom issued to the Militia. Reports from the specoial service Batallions during the wqinter of 1864/65 quote shortages of these fragile necessaries and photographs of the 3rd Bn Vol Militia show distinctly latye war pattern havresacks probably purchased as surplus.

Erik Simundson

[jacobite8749]

Re: 1857 Royal Engineers issue items

For my sins I use the Arms and Equipment of the British Army 1866, published by Greenhill Books which was originaly published by HMSO in 1865, and with an added drill section in 1867. Any terms are those contained in the book. I have also used for references those terms used in the McRae invoices.

Modern terms, or understandings abound, and I have not attempted to use them, mainly as you say, the language changes over time.

In the 1865 book mess tins are called mess tins, and not refered to as canteens. Waterbottles are waterbottles. That obviously does not take into account a clerk in an office who refers to items perhaps from a civilian vocabulary.

Sgt Mj's and Sgts take great pride in thinking of things to shout at young soldiers, and I can well imagine yours doing so. I shouted at my troop, after waking them a 03.45 when they had displeased me with the call "to get outside in 3 minutes in boots and mess tins", and was quite suprised when they all appeared naked, in boots with burnished mess tins at a present. It was not what I meant, but I did say it. Happy days.