Early War Uniform

[DougCooper]

Re: Early War Uniform

Joe I am still unclear as to the purpose of the poll. What if you get 32 frocks, 28 overshirts, etc? What then? Do you find a unit impression of a company that wore frocks....or do you need another poll that includes color, faric, trim or untrimmed, etc? Are you saying you are going to organize an event based on the data...or are you and your comrades going to buy what the majority of the poll says and pick an impression to match?

As has been said time and again on these forums by some very smart folks, including this time: When it comes to CS uniform data and specific impressions, broad and loose data is useless.

By the way, what is "early war?" 1861? 1862?

Not trying to be argumentative, but want to help you focus a bit.

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: Early War Uniform

Joe I am still unclear as to the purpose of the poll. What if you get 32 frocks, 28 overshirts, etc? What then? Do you find a unit impression of a company that wore frocks....or do you need another poll that includes color, faric, trim or untrimmed, etc? Are you saying you are going to organize an event based on the data...or are you and your comrades going to buy what the majority of the poll says and pick an impression to match?

As has been said time and again on these forums by some very smart folks, including this time: When it comes to CS uniform data and specific impressions, broad and loose data is useless.

By the way, what is "early war?" 1861? 1862?

Not trying to be argumentative, but want to help you focus a bit.

OK...OK...OK...

Doug, you and several other members have made several VERY valid points...

It is the intent I believe to collect very "broad"...and..."useful" information...leading into more specific...more detailed polls as we move forward. It is up to the event organizers to decide "how to use the information...and what to do next"...while the intent would be to form events based on a "model-company", a variety of "solution paths" exists depending on what kind of support there is for Early-War eventum (ca. 1861)...

A simple solution path (dependant on support-level), might be to portray two seperate companies (one-with frocks...and one with overshirts)...as long as each company meets the published standards for those historic impressions....caveat, this model doesn't work with only 25 soldiers (two companies with less than 12 soldiers)...in order to have seperate companies, it would be expected that at least 60-70 people would be involved to make these impressions work....

We fully realize...that an overshirt...is not indicative of a uniform...because we can have a variety of; red-shirts, blue-shirts, grey-shirts...with plastron...without plastron...with trim...without trim...etc. The same challenge applying to frock-coats...private-purchase jackets...etc.

Moving forward...what we need to review, is what level of commitment could be expected to form a "Core" impression to be used at several 1861 events[list of possible Living Histories...campaigner events...is being compiled] bringing the best of our hobby together (I know, we attempt this time and time again).

Please remain positive...remain curious...continue to provide feedback...ask questions...provide documentation...and add your generic data to the poll.

Paul B.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Early War Uniform

Hallo!

While I agree with the comments and opinions thus far, I think the original intent is asking for laundry lists as to what lads have.
Outside of that, and research and documentation for the historical matching of clothing and gear specific to unit, time, and place... this can be like buying ammunition first and then seeking to buy guns that can shoot it.

And we run into what "works" and what "doesn't work" in an apples-and-oranges kind of way when we "go vanilla" and want/need/have to match what kit we have to the realm of units/time/place in a general and generic way by painting with the broad brush of such terms and concepts as:

- Early War
- Commutation jackets
- Frock coats

If we want/desire/need to first look at "economy" of not asking lads to have to actually buy unique or limited unit/time/place specific clothing and gear for a non-repeating event or living history- seeing what kind of impression can be constructed, created, somewhat made to fit, or bent to a specific unit/time/place and not be broken or "too farby" is not all that outrageous perhaps.

IMHO, kind of like doing a 1st Bull Run event where the overwhelming majority of participants are armed with M1861 Springfields or P1853 Enfields.

Or where the end result is a company of Confederates where head-to-toe each and every item of clothing and gear ends up being different from the man next to him whether 1861, 1863 or 1865, East or West.

Or events where we are, say, Company "J" (Jose Jimenez Company) of the 23rd Mexican Menopausal Militia (U.S.) at Antietam in 1862 and since we do not know anything of what the 23rd had, and we know most all Fed reenactors already have a blouse, fatigue blouses it is.

Again, the historical points here are correct, but with the caveats previously given, the request of the initial post was for "laundry lists."

Others' mileage will vary...

Curt
Heretic

[Haversack]

Re: Early War Uniform

I have both an untrimmed tan jeancloth frock coat and an untrimmed brown jeancloth commutation jacket.I can easily add trim to either coat if needed.I wear Civilian blue cordoruoy trousers.I wear a Civilian slouch hat.I have Civilian shoes.I use a '42 Springfield and Mexican War Federal Accoutrements.

[csuniforms]

Re: Early War Uniform-and what?

Hello, Interesting thread. I am confused. Is your question trying to decide what to put into your "invitation standards" or "uniform desired" for event page, or are you trying to create a page based upon what the ACF members have at home?
I will state, that if you have a great event planned, they will come,--- with the "uniform" you want them to use.
Now, that said, we being all good living historians, what they wore in Virginia, Mississippi, North Carolina, Tennessee, Louisiana, etc. in April to July, 1861, changed in August to December, 1861, and again from January, 1862 to May 1862 and on and on.-- Remember this point. What you wore to your first camp was gone by July for most, and winter clothing was asked for in August-September of 1861, which was described in both theatres as homespun-jeans for the most part.--donated!!
Good Luck and if you use the brain power here you will get help.
Tom Arliskas
CSuniforms

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: Early War Uniform-and what?

Hello, Interesting thread. I am confused. Is your question trying to decide what to put into your "invitation standards" or "uniform desired" for event page, or are you trying to create a page based upon what the ACF members have at home?
I will state, that if you have a great event planned, they will come,--- with the "uniform" you want them to use.
Now, that said, we being all good living historians, what they wore in Virginia, Mississippi, North Carolina, Tennessee, Louisiana, etc. in April to July, 1861, changed in August to December, 1861, and again from January, 1862 to May 1862 and on and on.-- Remember this point. What you wore to your first camp was gone by July for most, and winter clothing was asked for in August-September of 1861, which was described in both theatres as homespun-jeans for the most part.--donated!!
Good Luck and if you use the brain power here you will get help.
Tom Arliskas
CSuniforms

Tom,

Agree with most of your points...with exception to the following...

What you wore to your first camp was gone by July for most.

Is this comment based on a specific theatre/unit. In looking at Virginia Enlistments...we had masses of Virginians enlisting from April of 1861 right up through July. A simple review of Manassas will show that many of the units present at that July 1861 battle were still wearing their unique uniforms in which they enlisted-in, or received some brief time after enlisting.

Thanks!

Paul B.

[RJSamp]

Re: Early War Uniform

Sorry, I didn't see the CSA part of the question until I clicked on frock coat. You need state militia uniforms as a poll option.....the Wisconsin Militia Uniform in cadet grey....

[Prodical Reb]

Re: Early War Uniform

Tom,

Agree with most of your points...with exception to the following...



Is this comment based on a specific theatre/unit. In looking at Virginia Enlistments...we had masses of Virginians enlisting from April of 1861 right up through July. A simple review of Manassas will show that many of the units present at that July 1861 battle were still wearing their unique uniforms in which they enlisted-in, or received some brief time after enlisting.

Thanks!

Paul B.

Sorry, I didn't see the CSA part of the question until I clicked on frock coat. You need state militia uniforms as a poll option.....the Wisconsin Militia Uniform in cadet grey....

How does a Wisconsin state militia uniform in cadet grey come out to be CSA?!?? It is what it is. They weren't CSA. You would have to change some things, either by adding or taking away some things.

reread the entire thread. I stated that very fact in the 2nd post quoted below. I'll make it more to the point; options needed are state issue coats, militia coats, civilian clothes, and commutation coats which cover the all others for early war.

Need a couple of more options. eg state coats - NC issued state sack coats early in the war of their own standard. Another option is to put tape trim on a RD2 to look like a commutation jacket. Still another option is civilian clothes.

I own a frock coat w/black cuffs and collar, NC state sack and an RD2 that I can sew black tape trim (cuffs, collar, epaulets, and or chest like a musician) to look like a commutation or militia coat.

If you want to improve the RD2 looks you can also add more buttons and/or change to a more generic early button such as a flower, federal eagle, state seal or coin buttons.

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: Early War Uniform

How does a Wisconsin state militia uniform in cadet grey come out to be CSA?!?? It is what it is. They weren't CSA. You would have to change some things, either by adding or taking away some things.

reread the entire thread. I stated that very fact in the 2nd post quoted below. I'll make it more to the point; options needed are state issue coats, militia coats, civilian clothes, and commutation coats which cover the all others for early war.

OK, gentlemen…believe it or not the seemingly “vagueness” of the questions has yielded excellent results…and excellent feedback.

There’s a reason for a few things (direction-wise) why some things may/may not have been included.

• In general Civilian Clothes were not included on this lists, because we were looking for feedback on “general” types of military garb people have in their arsenal.
• A “RD II” with applied tape/piping does not necessarily equal a “commutation”/ early-war roundabout style jacket…heck, there are a few surviving jackets (like the Marr jacket) and lots of pictures of Early-War jackets that may/may not have tape/piping applied...for that matter it works in the reverse as well, thinking of same mid-late war arty jackets w/ red piping… When it comes down to it, the devil is in the details…and it all comes down to what the impression being portrayed is…
• Private Purchase Jacket: I believe the intent of this was to be all-encompassing of jackets (given that much of these were privately-purchased Early-on in the war…maybe not the best phrasing, as frocks and overshirts were private purchase items as well…)…such is life…
• NC State Issue Sack Coat: OK…this is an area I’m very green on…and yes, we probably could have tacked that on the questions list…I wander just how many people have this…?

If you want to improve the RD2 looks you can also add more buttons and/or change to a more generic early button such as a flower, federal eagle, state seal or coin buttons.

I partially agree with this statement…again it all comes down to what’s being portrayed…Anyone have a date of when CS Block “I”s were being produced and coming into service, I bet it wasn’t April/May 1861, hell the Confederates didn’t even have postage stamps made at that point…yes, when documented…State buttons would be HIGHLY desirable on uniforms…

Keep the positive feedback coming, as this Tool…as generic as it may seem does have some real value in planning eventum…

Paul B.

[Charles Heath]

Re: Early War Uniform

"And we run into what "works" and what "doesn't work" in an apples-and-oranges kind of way when we "go vanilla" and...."

Curt,

More like Neapolitan. :)

It's nice to see some young people with fresh thinking when it comes to events, especially Confederate events. I like what I'm seeing.

[Prodical Reb]

Re: Early War Uniform

There’s a reason for a few things (direction-wise) why some things may/may not have been included.......

• A “RD II” with applied tape/piping does not necessarily equal a “commutation”/ early-war roundabout style jacket…heck, there are a few surviving jackets (like the Marr jacket) and lots of pictures of Early-War jackets that may/may not have tape/piping applied...for that matter it works in the reverse as well, thinking of same mid-late war arty jackets w/ red piping… When it comes down to it, the devil is in the details…and it all comes down to what the impression being portrayed is…


I partially agree with this statement…again it all comes down to what’s being portrayed…Anyone have a date of when CS Block “I”s were being produced and coming into service, I bet it wasn’t April/May 1861, hell the Confederates didn’t even have postage stamps made at that point…yes, when documented…State buttons would be HIGHLY desirable on uniforms…

Keep the positive feedback coming, as this Tool…as generic as it may seem does have some real value in planning eventum…

Paul B.

Paul,
Since there is a variety of buttons found on RDIIs the interpolation of it is if you have a mid to late war button on an RDII, change them to an early button & add more if needed. If you have Federal eagle buttons add more if needed.

I didn't say add block or script I, A, C, CSA or some other mid or late war button for obvious reasons. Early war is the time frame we're going for. Flower, state seals, flat, coin, domed, ball or wood buttons are all good choices for early war.

Your right about it depends on what is being portrayed. But with that thought documentation may or may not exist on what the 72nd San Fransciscan Queens own wore at a certain point. You are back to what do we (event organizers) want them to look like.

Piping can be added, if needed, in several differnt ways to look early. A few examples are taken from Greg Mast's book, State Troops and Volunteers:

[Moose]

Re: Early War Uniform

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22787

Cheers,

[Charles Heath]

Re: Early War Uniform

Mike,

Those are nice images, and they make me wonder "when the next volume" is going to be published. Sigh.

The simple truth is a good number of folks have a grey (of any shade) overshirt hanging in the closet. A gray overshirt company won't be too difficult to raise. Maybe two if the economy improves, but reenactor math is what it is even in good times.

One mid-Atlantic group, and some folks who splintered off after a spell, have blue overshirts with red trim. That is good for a certain impression, and with the right amount of hand-holding and assurances that they won't be eaten by the Piedmont Yeti, then they may be convinced to step up to the plate.

Some folks have a nice grey frock coat (trimmed or untrimmed) that makes for a dandy impression, especially on a cool day on the parade ground. A darn fine approved vendor makes a frock coat that won't break the bank, too. He's about in the center of that infamous photograph of Co. G, 24th Iowa at ITPW.

Others have a blue frock of some kind, which fits in better than one might expect, with a nod to the somewhat surprised fellows in Rickett's Battery, of course. There is a jaw dropper in this for sure, and those folks may have a smattering of Scott's tactics that may serve them quite well.

The grand assortment of private purchase jackets, taped up whatzits, something Momma or Sis made at home, the dandy is his best suit of clothes, nd other garments has a place, too. That company may fill far faster than some others, and what they lack in appearance they'll surely make up for in drill.

The easy companies to portray may very well be the ones delayed on the train for several days, or those hustled down to Rockett's Landing on an extended labor detail.

No answers. No pimping. No spoilers. No BS. Just some simple minded thoughts on a pleasant May evening about some young folks working well outside the traditional, confining, box of the samo-samo event.

All of this, of course, is subject to change.

[Prodical Reb]

Re: Early War Uniform

Charles,
my unit still has contacts with Greg. I finally met him last fall at a LH my unit did at Appomattox. He currently working on Vol 2 now. Hopefully it will be out in the next couple of years. I know I'm looking fwd to it. He is still looking for pics of NC troops. He asked me if I had any of my ancestors. I wish I did! The 1st is an excellent choice to have on the shelf for viewing early uniforms of NC. here is Greg's website:

http://statetroopsandvolunteers.com/

I would state that early uniforms of militia from NC was a norm across the board for all of the states in the US. Blue & grey were a popular everywhere. After the splitt and up to 1st Bull Run/Manassas militia uniforms were still the same, and prevalent everywhere, hence the confusion at this battle. In May of '61, the NC gov't issued orders adopting a NC state regulations for military uniforms. As luck would have it, the NC regs met the CS gov't regs (which were much broader and adopted later) for the most part. I believe the color for infantry was the only difference, black in NC and blue for CS.

[Charles Heath]

Re: Early War Uniform

Mike,

Oddly enough, the (up to) 12 reenactors from North Carolina will likely be in frock coats of a very similar pattern (collectively) engaged in a very specific activity. In fact, that figure is optimistic.