Open Discussion about Moderating / Membership Disagreements

[HOG.EYE.MAN]

Re: Open Discussion about Moderating / Membership Disagreements

Mr. Schmidt in particular admits he is no longer a CW reenactor, but he seems to have something to say on every thread. Frankly, I take that as insulting. Jim Butler

Coming from someone who seems to be a leader in the active community, this is the dumbest thing I ever heard of. Insulting? Seriously? Are we talking about the same Curt Schmidt? The same guy who provides a wealth of information time and time again? Shun the retirees.... Yeah, that's smart.

Maybe the decline in the hobby is due to people who say comments like this. It keeps people from coming back.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Open Discussion about Moderating / Membership Disagreements

Hallo!

That douche bag Mr.Schmidt, what a pesky fellow.

Since the end of the Moderator Wars of 2002-2004, I am indeed "semi-retired." After having attended and stopped counting at 250 Civil War events over the years, I now attend only 7-8 events a year, two of which are WWI. A big change since the 12-15 of the Good Olde Daze.

In September 2009, a new medication stopped my heart and killed me while riding.
20 minutes of flat line later, on the 5th defibrilator shock, and eventually four broken ribs, knocked out and loose front teeth, and 3rd degree burns from the paddle, I came back to life against impossible astronomical odds and awoke six hours later to "Squeeze my hand."

2010 is an "off year" for me. Having been seriously injured with four broken ribs, and also having later been in Germany for a month, I have missed some events I usually always attend.

I have recently been asked to command either the Federal or Confederate forces at one event being reorganizing and revamped to Progressive CPH standards. And last week I was asked to portray Captain Phillip Hitchcock of the the 171st OVI.

Not posting as an excuse, or a ploy for sympathy. Just adding that if I am a douche bag, IMHO it is in the overall scheme of how anyone enjoys their hobby or the actual good or bad I do for folks- it is as a little one.

IF I were to be asked why people are leaving this hobby, at this moment, I would say it is because of this shite.

Others' mileage will vary...

Douche Bag Curt

[KPavia]

Re: Open Discussion about Moderating / Membership Disagreements

Mr. Butler, from what you've said, it seems to me like you hold people up to your standard of reenacting, and if they don't fit your view, then they aren't a reenactor like you and shouldn't be allowed to associate in the reenactor circles in which you associate. To me, your attitude is similar to that of an active duty soldier looking down on us national guardsmen or reserve soldiers. Just because we don't train 24/7 doesn't make us any less a soldier, and frankly, that attitude is insulting and offensive. If Curt Schmidt is a douche bag because he only does 7-8 events per year, then I'm one too. At most I can only afford to make the 24+ hour drive to an EFUBU once a year, and seeing as how I'm gradauting with a BA in history next semester and hope to be attending law school in the fall 2011, I don't think I'll be able to afford more than one drive per year out to the east. And if, despite my love of history, the small living histories I do here locally, my desire to do portray the private soldier correctly and authentically, I'm not a reenactor by your standard, then I don't know who is. Attending EFUBU's does not create a living historian. That attitude is what, IMO, is ruining this end of the hobby and this forum in particular.

With regards to the subject of this thread, I personally have no problem with the mods. At times I think they can jump the gun a bit to "enthusiastically" but you can't hear tone of voice through words, so I don't assume that they are abusing their "power." Its just too bad that this forum, of which I have been a member twice back around 2004 before I left the country for a couple years, is turning away from its original purpose of welcoming and helping authentically minded historians and seems to be morphing into a place for reenactor "elitists."

[paulcalloway]

Re: Open Discussion about Moderating / Membership Disagreements

Well here's the truth of the matter - as far as inactive hobbiests on our staff there are arguably three of them. And one of them is me.



Administrators:

• Paul Calloway - Inactive
• Tripp Corbin
• Ashley Middleton
• Justin Runyon
• Matt Woodburn

Moderators:

• Beth Crabb
• Michael Comer
• Pat Craddock
• Emmanuel Dabney
• Troy Groves
• Jim Kindred - Inactive
• Ken Knopp
• Johnny Lloyd
• Neill Rose
• Curt Schmidt - Inactive? (7-8 events per year)
• Mark Tackitt
• Lee White
• John Wickett

To say that that forum is run by former reenactors isn't true - as you can see we've gone to a great deal of effort to see that active reenactors are a part of our admin and mod teams.

Curt does provide a wealth of knowledge and that is why he is here - he's also here because there was a lot of complaining around here a year or two ago that we needed to have mods "like we used to" ... and so we brought one back. Jim Kindred is primarily responsible for the modern military folder and frankly Jim is very active - he's so active that he handles a lot of the mundane, day to day moderating that other moderators don't seem to take the time to do. I could post moderator logs that would probably make some of our mods blush - Jim is a workhorse in removing a lot of the farbonzo crap you all collectively hate to see on these forums. Jim does have a pretty low tolerance for BS - but again, that was something you all were requesting a year or two ago ... a little bit of the old school moderating style. Ah, how that seems to ebb and flow. Those of you that have been around here awhile know what I mean.

As far as me - yeah, I'm out of reenacting for now. I could write all day long on reasons why - but me and the hobby had a parting of the ways a few years ago, and as much as I miss you all - it's just not the right time in my life to be out reenacting. I used to be as active as anyone else in this hobby - and you all know that. Life changed for me though and I've got a family to raise right now.

I still want to see this forum accomplish its purpose though and so I still continue to chip in and keep the software going. It's been awhile since we've had any major crashes and that's not by accident. If you all would prefer I relinquish my role as an adminstrator here - if it would best for the website, or better for the hobby - I'll be glad to do it.

I'm not dismissing anyones concerns because I don't entirely disagree with them - we can all do better. Frankly we could use some of our "active hobbiest moderators" (like this hobby needs another new term) to be a little more active on the forums... that would mean that inactive hobbiests like Jim and Curt wouldn't be always out in front taking the heat.

I've said it a hundred times - this is your website. You can play a roll in making it better or you can wash your hands of it and walk away. We'd prefer if you chose the former but its really your choice.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Open Discussion about Moderating / Membership Disagreements

Herr Kammeraden (Curt-Heinrich Schmidt) has forgotten more about the Civil War particularly hardware than most people will ever know.
Any thread where he posts is better for his having weighed in. Ditto with most of the folks on that list...

[tsgalloway]

Re: Open Discussion about Moderating / Membership Disagreements

A thought about Keyboard Campaigners....just because George Lucas has only directed 6 movies in his career and none since 2005....is his talent as a movie maker diminished? No.

I think our mods have a combined experience equal to 100 years or more in the hobby, just because family or health issues keep them from marching and camping with us, doesn't mean their knowledge of the hobby or the 1860s is diminished.

As a former moderator for my old reenacting group's forum (with less than 30 members vs. the thousands here), I can say it's a shitty job. No pay, long hours, hate mail and thankless work.

I don't agree with what some of the moderators have written here, but it's their house and their rules. You don't like it? Build your own virtual house and invite 5,000 guests and see how quickly the house party turns into a riot.

I agree with Chris. Some moderators tend to jump the gun at times, but they are only human. I appreciate what Jim K. and Curt have to say. It would be a shame to lose either of them as I especially enjoy reading Curt's posts on period firearms. There are many informational nuggets to take home in his posts.

[blue steel]

Re: Open Discussion about Moderating / Membership Disagreements

You know, my house burned to the ground about 15 hours ago. I can’t sleep and I have to sift through the rubble in a few hours. The only part of my kit I have found is my Todd Watts Enfield. And then I read this…thread.

As the fresh fish so many years ago, I bought all the “good’ Pakistani stuff I could. Then I found the AC. I read and learned and spoke very little. Back in the day you got your head ripped off and your arse chewed as a noob. The one person that I felt I could approach was Herr Schmidt. He answered every one of my questions via PM when I know I would have been slaughtered if I asked in the open on the forum. He was and is always courteous Curt when dealing with me.

Did I ever become that Hardcore guy, nope. But my method and kit improved and I did the dog and pony shows with a bit more authenticity to teach others the way soldiers did live. This season I had finally screwed up the courage to hit the EBUFU list, then life happened. I have not been to a single event all year and may not make one at all now.

People bitch and moan about this, that, and the other. Everyone has the better gear or idea, yadda yadda. One of the constants, with what appears boundless knowledge is Herr Schmidt. So let’s toss him to the side, and why not the campaigner’s manifesto? How about the stuff Charles Heath contributed? What about all those that came before and paved the way for this side of the Hobby? Shoot, toss out all those old black and white photos from the era.

It happens to us all; we age, life happens, etc, etc.

Ladies, I apologize for the language. Gentlemen, I do not.

And Herr Schmidt, let me know when and where the event is at. If you will have a non period conforming in shape, age, size…etc. I wish to enlist.

[robert-m]

Re: Open Discussion about Moderating / Membership Disagreements

Mr. Helvey, I am sorry to hear about your home. That is not a comfortable feeling at all, I've been there. My sympathies are out to you and your family.

[Pvt_Sullivan]

Re: Open Discussion about Moderating / Membership Disagreements

Since the subject of what it means to be 'active' in the hobby came up please indulge me with some thoughts on this....

First, Authentic Campaigning and Living History are in my mind an active hobby. You have to at least show up in kit ready to participate or else you are kabuki/support, a spectator or worse a Keyboard Kampaigner if you don't show up. There is a place for long time living historians, professional academics and enthusiasts, but in my mind it's no longer as a leader (which by inference means administrating or moderating a website designed to serve that community) and they should step back and let those who are active either succeed or fail. I think the logic barrier between that belief of mine and what is generally being espoused in this thread is insurmountable. But since Paul asked for input, I'd be a coward and a contributor to the problem if I sulked off and didn't publish my thoughts here.

I looked down the list of admins and mods and thought about which ones I've seen at what has come to be known as a 'Tier One' event. In general I've met and shook the hand of one or more of the AC mods or admins at each event in the last three years (2008-2010). However I've never met Paul, Jim K or Curt at one. Now I'm not the bees knees, just one more guy on this journey trying to relive a small part of history to the highest level my mind, body and spirit can. But I can say I've been blessed to make time for a lot of events these past few years and think I got a pretty good grip on who supports this hobby by going to events. A curmudgeon once said "It's about the events stupid", and I agree. A much more tactful friend astutely told me once along side a fire on a cold evening that "It's not the event its the people you are with". Now if you think those thoughts are correct the simple fact that is derived is that you need to be going to events and looking people in the eye and participating. If your interaction with the hobby comes either entirely or mostly from behind a glowing screen, in my mind you are not participating anymore and have become one of the other classes of individuals I've mentioned.

Lord knows, I can be just as tactless as my friend Jim Butler, that is a character failing of mine. The crux of it is that our passion drives us to question and confront those who would say there is something wrong with what we are doing or trying do and to point out those who are not with us in the mud and heat making statements questioning the actions of those of who are.

Now what that all boils down to me is that if the current mods and admins want the full respect of all segments of this hobby then make sure you are known as active. Support the Tier One events, go to them. If you real life situation and choices prevent that, I'll be the first to thank you for your service and dedication to the hobby, but its time to step down from trying to lead something you don't participate in.

To paraphrase in a less obnoxious manner... It's about the events, if you're not there you're not participating in the hobby.

With that said, Paul is going to make his choices and its well past time to either let it rest and accept what the AC is without disrupting it for those who are happy with it and participate or to move on elsewhere if you're not willing to accept it.

Now in many cases our hobby has expanded and morphed. Not all events require suffering in the mud and cold or dust and heat anymore (my favorites events still offer that). In a few weeks in October I'm going to be with one of the largest gatherings of the hobby in Lumpkin Georgia, oddly enough there is still time to register and get involved. The link is below.

[Jim of The SRR]

Re: Open Discussion about Moderating / Membership Disagreements

Mr. Butler, from what you've said, it seems to me like you hold people up to your standard of reenacting, and if they don't fit your view, then they aren't a reenactor like you and shouldn't be allowed to associate in the reenactor circles in which you associate. "

This is entirely untrue! I associate with all levels of reenactors from farb to hardcore. So, I am now wondering what people you are saying are outside the circle? Are you talking about NON-reenactors being outside the circle of reenactors? If I don't bowl...am I a bowler? If they are not at a reenactment, how can I shun them or associate with them? This has really blown up bigger than it needs to be. This really started by observing that 80% of the commentray here on our hobby comes from non-reenactors. Mr. Kindred is right, this is their forum and they can do as they wish. I guess we differ on focus. Is this site primarily (not exclusively) for discussion by and for reenactors or it is it to be primarily for non-reenactors who feel the need to dominate the discussion on all things related to the hobby (and I don't mean areas like 'Research'...I am talking about 'Event and Hobby discussion'. Too bad we can't have a digital reenactment. I am one person making an observation, my opinion carrying no wmore weight than the next one, you can agree or disagree, lets leave it at that now.

Jim Butler

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Open Discussion about Moderating / Membership Disagreements

Mr. Butler, from what you've said, it seems to me like you hold people up to your standard of reenacting, and if they don't fit your view, then they aren't a reenactor like you and shouldn't be allowed to associate in the reenactor circles in which you associate.

You have this wrong. JB is one of the most supportive cats in the hobby. Period. He has ALWAYS extended the warmest, most supportive welcome and opptys to me and others I know who are not high speed, steely eyed, wool clad dealers of re-enacted death.

2008 was the most meaningful time in the hobby for me and all 4 events I did were at the invite and support of Jim Butler.

Christopher Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[Old Reb]

Re: Open Discussion about Moderating / Membership Disagreements

I am long in the tooth and it won't be long before I won't be able to drag my tired old body out to events any longer, so before I drown in my own drool, indulge this old campaigner for a moment. There is no one here that invented the wheel and many discovered it years ago and tinkered with it and made it better. That folks newer to the hobby come along and rediscover the wheel doesn't mean they invented it either though they act as they have. I owe much to those I learned from and they are long past being active in the hobby but I still would rely on them for Knowledge and respect them for what they have done for the hobby. Before I crawl off to the bone yard for 'enactors I admit that even when I no longer can attend events I will still have some value to the forum. I have experienced combat and been shot at with live rounds. I have spent much of my life perfecting woodsmen skills. I have researched the Civil War especially pertaining to the Trans-Mississippi. I have helped plan and host extended events. If those with experience are tossed aside then folks lose a vital experience base. Lastly, I have not made my exit yet, so until I do, I feel no quilt for expressing my opinion.

[toccoa42]

Re: Open Discussion about Moderating / Membership Disagreements

Hallo!

That douche bag Mr.Schmidt, what a pesky fellow.

Since the end of the Moderator Wars of 2002-2004, I am indeed "semi-retired." After having attended and stopped counting at 250 Civil War events over the years, I now attend only 7-8 events a year, two of which are WWI. A big change since the 12-15 of the Good Olde Daze.

In September 2009, a new medication stopped my heart and killed me while riding.
20 minutes of flat line later, on the 5th defibrilator shock, and eventually four broken ribs, knocked out and loose front teeth, and 3rd degree burns from the paddle, I came back to life against impossible astronomical odds and awoke six hours later to "Squeeze my hand."

2010 is an "off year" for me. Having been seriously injured with four broken ribs, and also having later been in Germany for a month, I have missed some events I usually always attend.

I have recently been asked to command either the Federal or Confederate forces at one event being reorganizing and revamped to Progressive CPH standards. And last week I was asked to portray Captain Phillip Hitchcock of the the 171st OVI.

Not posting as an excuse, or a ploy for sympathy. Just adding that if I am a douche bag, IMHO it is in the overall scheme of how anyone enjoys their hobby or the actual good or bad I do for folks- it is as a little one.

IF I were to be asked why people are leaving this hobby, at this moment, I would say it is because of this shite.

Others' mileage will vary...

Douche Bag Curt

Good comeback, Curt. Always did like your style, you semi-retired Alte Hase.

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Open Discussion about Moderating / Membership Disagreements

Pete,

Speaking not as a moderator:
I have to point something you said:

There is a place for long time living historians, professional academics and enthusiasts, but in my mind it's no longer as a leader (which by inference means administrating or moderating a website designed to serve that community)

As you said yourself: its about the events. Events don't happen on the web.

If a Les Jensen (or Tom Yearby!!) wants to chime in here, I'm all ears. The membership of this site is chocked-full of researchers and veteran reenactors. I think we all benefit from them having a seat at the table and I think that their knowledge and experience entitles them to some respect.

If folks have issues with particular actions of individuals, that's one thing. But cleaving off knowledgable individuals simply based on whether they attend events or not... or worse, whether or not the attend particular events, doesn't sit well with me.

Re: Events...
I am of the opinion that a lot of the issues here are the symptom and not the disease. My opinion on the cure is well-documented.

[Becky Morgan]

Re: Open Discussion about Moderating / Membership Disagreements

First of all, Mr. Helvey, I'm sorry to hear of your misfortune.

Yes, I am a keyboard campaigner for the moment, soon to be a kabuki again. I could revive my old impression (albeit with much more accurate clothing!) but my situation is such that were I to register for an event, odds are at best fifty-fifty that I could actually attend. In the past, I've been the one making that frantic last-minute scramble to find a replacement for endless no-sjows, and I won't do that to anyone else. As far as beng able to go very long distances for even a mainstream event, finances will likely forbid my ever doing that unless I hit the lottery. I can be mad about that, or I can do what I can where I can. I came here in the first place because the state of research with the local unit was not good and I wanted to know what others were doing and what they found did and didn't work in presenting living history.

Over the years, I've seen several units come and go, and yes, I'm 52 and old enough to remember the, er, remarkable assumptions of the hundredth anniversary events. By the time I was in college, things had improved, but were still light-years behind where we are. If this hobby is still around in ten years, it'll be light-years ahead of where we are, or we won't have done our jobs. I found part of my 1976 stuff not that long ago. Even if it still fit, it'd be so inaccurate that I wouldn't think of going anywhere in it. It was the best we could do at the time, with what we knew and what we had to use. At the time, it even got nice remarks. That was then, this is now. It won't make me mad that I have to change. This is the unlovely part: I've run across grown men arguing about whose jacket was better, and I';ve seen a woman sent home in an accurate dress because she didn't look like the inaccurately dressed other female participants, who weren't willing to hear what she had to say. (Proper day dres, by the way, in contrast to the others at the event, who were portraying a Sanitary Fair event held during the afternoon in what amounted to ballgowns.) Event politics like that are what made me stepo back from the hobby in the first place, and it doesn;t look as if they're getting any better.

I've had posts removed, and one still makes me scratch my head a bit because it wasn't insulting and didn't seem different from what someone else said, but it's the mods' place and their rules, so I shrug it off. For all that my living situation restricts where I can go, it also lends me opportunity to try things in daily life that might help someone going into the field. Some of that may not be appropriate for this forum, but it's the mods' call. It may be that experience from planning other types of events doesn't fit here, but if someone seems to need a comment I'll throw it in, and if it doesn't belong, they're free to delete it and I won't get mad. Puzzled, occasionally, but not mad. I think in terms of merging, as it were, the sacred and the profane: where's the water? who has the emergency phone, and is it set to vibrate and not to ring? at a public event, is there a way to put a photo line where it won't ruin the pictures? what are the safety concerns? who is responsible for checking the weather and bringing word if anything serious happens? There are people who don't think we should concern ourselves with any of that because the originals didn't. The original cast indeed didn't worry, or didn't know, about such matters, but they didn't expect to go home on Sunday evening and be back to work Monday, either.

Another frequent disagreement I see comes from the fundamental question: is this only for us, or do we have a mission to educate others? There seems to be no way to resolve it. It's neither right nor wrong to be bothered by modern intrusions. I'm not. The few really good memories I have of reenactments are not diminished because I now realize my kit wasn't perfect, or because there was a contrail visible in the sky, or power lines in the distance. For some, any of those problems would ruin the whole experience. By the same token, some can;'t tolerate the presence of mainstream reenactors, even if they want to improve, because their inaccuracies grate on the campaigners' sensibilities. I'm not talking about funnel cake booths and canned beer here; I'm talking being bothered by an incorrect jacket (literally, in one case I saw many years ago, a buttonhole tantrum) or a wrong pair of ladies; shoes when nothing really correct was available. If an inaccuracy doesn't leap out, it won't bother me. As I've said before, a bad attitude is far more damaging to me than a concealed zipper. Some don't feel that way, and that's their right.