Open Discussion about Moderating / Membership Disagreements

[GrumpyDave]

Re: Open Discussion about Moderating / Membership Disagreements

Drives me crazy when the members use "threads" like they're their personal AIM accounts and the Mod's let them. You have to wade through, "Hi, how are you?, I'm going! Will I'll see you, I bought one, it's great, How's your's," and on and on, before you can get to any kind of useful information. And, God forbid, someone uses all fo the search and seek features, like they're supposed to, and they ask where the can purchase a quality good(s). Umteen guys have to chime in and tell everyone how wonder their good is, even though they post nothing about where they bought it. I guess both of those gripes fall into the "Look at me," catagory, which also drives me nuts. Folks come here looking for information and help(mostly seasoned folks but sometimes the fresh fish), they certianly arent' looking for "you," to tell them how wonderful you are and....
Sorry if this isn't a good contrubution.

[JimKindred]

Re: Open Discussion about Moderating / Membership Disagreements

Just for the record the post that started this tirade was made in the Sinks folder and not in any area of the forum dedicated to event planning or promotion. The Sinks is an area open to all forum members whether they participate or not in the field. We do not check their attendance record at the door.

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?29540-Attendance-Reenacting&p=186828#post186828

[Blair]

Re: Open Discussion about Moderating / Membership Disagreements

Well said Tom!

Toss out those retired or ready to retire, those with many years of pervious experience, the modern reenacter may just as well toss out the experiences of those, in the hobby today, wish to emulate.
While we're at it, lets through out all those antiques! They are all Passé and can't teach us anything any more!
This whole concept smacks of a double standard that abounds within the hobby today.
Retiring from this hobby DOES NOT negate the contributions one may wish to share with those still active in the hobby.
What is offered maybe used or not used. That option is left up to those reading the posting.
No One has the right to make that decision for another individual.

[JimKindred]

Re: Open Discussion about Moderating / Membership Disagreements

Drives me crazy when the members use "threads" like they're their personal AIM accounts and the Mod's let them. You have to wade through, "Hi, how are you?, I'm going! Will I'll see you, I bought one, it's great, How's your's," and on and on, before you can get to any kind of useful information. And, God forbid, someone uses all fo the search and seek features, like they're supposed to, and they ask where the can purchase a quality good(s). Umteen guys have to chime in and tell everyone how wonder their good is, even though they post nothing about where they bought it. I guess both of those gripes fall into the "Look at me," catagory, which also drives me nuts. Folks come here looking for information and help(mostly seasoned folks but sometimes the fresh fish), they certianly arent' looking for "you," to tell them how wonderful you are and....
Sorry if this isn't a good contrubution.

Unfortunately, we do not have a rule that specifically prohibits those type posts as much as I wish we had one because such posts are a nuisance. Don't wait on the moderators to say something in the threads about it, often we are not aware of those type posts until someone reports them, as a forum member you can request they stop. Be courteous when doing so. It should not take the heavy hand of a moderator to make the first effort.

In the old days many of the forum members helped police the site rather than getting the moderators involved every time.

[PetePaolillo]

Re: Open Discussion about Moderating / Membership Disagreements

I have already sent my email off to Paul as it was pretty long winded and I believe that He as the owner of this site is the one that needs to read it. I am not going to go over every point in it, here and now. I do wish to say this though. I do not believe that the active campaigners here that have a gripe are suggesting to throw the Dinosaurs into the Tar pits. I think one of the problems that needs addressing is people not directly involved with the hobby of "Authentic Campaigning" that have been placed in administrative or moderating capacities here. I think some of the changes that need to occur are in that area. It is definitely one of the issues that have created some of the problems at hand. It is definitely not the cure all either. I do believe some other changes as to how this forum is operated need to occur. I am not going to pretend that I know exactly how do do that. But I believe that there are many good reenactors here that are capable of doing just that. The foundation that this website was set on is starting to crumble. Too many good people have already left and are leaving daily. Everyone is welcome here to share their knowledge and or learn from others. I just think that what folks need to be reminded of is this. This website is called the Authentic Campaigner- a website for the AUTHENTIC Living Historian. Some where along the line that definition has been blurred. When Paul Calloway and a group of active Campaigners set off into this adventure, I believe there vision was a place for US made by US. We need to restore that vision. That does not mean that retired reenactors, Historians or just plain civil war enthusiasts should not have a voice here either. I just think they should not be running the show. One last point for the record. The pulse of this hobby will always be felt out in the field. It will never be felt here in cyber land!! This form of communication is one of the worst forms of communication in our society today. In my mindset, nothing beats a handshake and a smile. Getting to know the people is what it is all about. That is nearly impossible here. Get to an event and make friends! That is the Hobby!!!

[KPavia]

Re: Open Discussion about Moderating / Membership Disagreements

This is entirely untrue! I associate with all levels of reenactors from farb to hardcore. So, I am now wondering what people you are saying are outside the circle?

You said yourself that Curt and others like him are outside your circle, your circle being those that attend the events you think reenactors should attend. If they don't attend the events you think they should attend, aka EBUFU's, then they have no right saying anyting on this board or being reenactors, to paraphrase your own words.

But cleaving off knowledgable individuals simply based on whether they attend events or not... or worse, whether or not the attend particular events, doesn't sit well with me.

Nor with me.

Curt said he goes to 7-8 events a year. To me, that is active. Others may disagree. He may disagree, but to hold people accountable by your view isn't fair at all. To you, what is an "active" reenactor, because I've interpreted your words as saying those that don't make the EBUFUs like you think they should, which makes Authentic reenacting more of an exclusive club with regional and economic boundaries, aren't authentic reenactors and should just not be here. What if the EBUFUs where all on the west coast?

To get technical, this website is called "The Authentic Campaigner: A Website for the Authentic Civil War Living Historian." Not reenactor but living historian. To be a living historian doesn't require attendance at certain events.

So, if you're going to judge others on this forum by your standard, then what is your standard?

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Open Discussion about Moderating / Membership Disagreements

I like what Petey B. said above. I agree with it for the most part. A few additional thoughts:

1)I do think modding is about style. I'm not the subject-matter expert on everything about the mid-19th century, but I know enough to participate at events. We tend to study that in the hobby that we are interested in. Therefore, I don't comment about every thread out there except for the stuff I know is completely farbism.

But I will step-up and control rudeness, non-compliance, and silliness that hurts the integrity of the forum. I can smell that from afar (leaders usually can in most any situation, not just here) and I have no problem modding these activities for the good of the membership. But I have often thought the rules of this forum are vague and they have the potential to cause confusion.

2) I currently participate in quality events, but there might come a time in the near future that family calls when I cannot do so. My wife and I plan on having kids and this will be my prime concern when we do, but I will never be far from the authentic hobby in-general as far as I can see. When this happens, am I supposed to give-up the reins of modding to someone that does quality events? (rhetorical, but something to think about) I have no problem in doing so.

3) Doing this for just about a year now, I can safely say that it is very easy to get jaded and downright angry sometimes at the rudeness that we mods endure. Some people might deal better with this than others. I keep thinking of "don't let a few bad apples spoil the bunch" as my thinking to keep my sanity in this.

Many people think this forum is a publically-held one or that when they send their 'hate emails' to the mods on here there is no one on the other end listending. I can assure ya'll that is not the case. That's why I have the signature line of "Think before you post..." Many people don't do so.

I'll turn this back over to the membership. Not meaning to run a tangent, but just that this is a good conversation that needs to be had and I wanted to contribute to it.

All the best- Johnny Lloyd ;)

[Clsinclair]

Re: Open Discussion about Moderating / Membership Disagreements

I guess that I will add my 2 cents to the discussion. First all the moderators are needed to pull the attack dogs off. You know who you are!!!! I tried to get the word out on the 150th Firing on Fort Sumter and the Pit Bulls broke their chains trying to get to me. It didn't matter that I recruited a moderator on this forum to head up the 1st US Artillery under Major Anderson at Fort Sumter from April 8th to April 14th of 2011. His standards and guidelines are within the standards that this forum uses and expects. Didn't matter that I had attended some of YOUR events because it was made clear that I couldn't be one of you because I belong to a progressive battalion. I have seen members of this forum use those same tactics in attacking others that do both type of events. The moderators had no choice than to close my post about the 150th Firing on Fort Sumter. I don't have a problem with the moderators because the ones that I know are good people. My problem is with some of the self righteous people who think that if you do certain events that you can't be a part of this forum and that you are an outsider looking in. That elitist attitude is doing you more harm than good. I am not saying that you should compromise your standards but that you should keep an open door for those that like doing both sides of the hobby. I remember an attack on a vendor because he would attend mainstream events and also the authentic events. I do appreciate what all the moderators do and I am a moderator on another forum.

[csabugler]

Re: Open Discussion about Moderating / Membership Disagreements

Let me begin by saying this is the "Authentic Campaigner", not "Authentic Researcher" or "Authentic Historian". I think "campaigning" is a key to the goal, which is sort of what Double P said, and is Jim Butlers main concern. That is not to say that there is no room for historians and researchers in either the membership or the moderators role. I have as much respect for Ken Knopp and his knowledge of equine culture as I have for any one I know in any part of my life. Ken has had some issues that have limited his participation in the field, but not his constant presentation of relevant information. His input is without equal in my opinion. His support was immeasurable in the things accomplished at Bummers in spite of the fact that he did not attend the event. So participation is not required.
Ken has more than once been forced to reprimand someone for some violation on this forum, but is was done with respect, was appropriate, and carried no hard feelings. I have never seen him use him "hammer" about the quality of an event, or to criticize an event. That is my point in this, if a mod is an expert in a particular aspect of this hobby other than current field participation, stick to that field.
I quit coming to this site about a year or so ago, and only came back at the request of someone else I respect to enter a bugle discussion. If you care to read on, I will tell you why I quit.
There was a thread about carrying big D-guard knives in the saddle which we have beaten to death here as having been done but was not "typical and customary". Some people were posting obscure references to fellas having had one, and I thought I saw in that justification for the fella who was looking to validate his "josie wales" impression with remarks from this forum. So I posted that after about 9 years in the saddle I just didn't see where they would carry one. Maybe one per mess, or a couple messes. But it was not "t and c" in my opinion. I further quoted an unsupported statistic of "something like 2 out of 1000 wounds recorded were inflicted by edged blades".
I was chastised by a still current moderator for posting an opinion and unsupported data as if I were some yahoo wearing blue work pants and a felt fedora. I had said it was my opinion, and that I didn't have the source onhand. But the response was a slap in the face.
Just like there is room for historians and researchers, there is room for opinions gathered from years of experience in the field. I am no expert, I'm no Ken Knopp. But if there is no room for my opinion on something after having done probably 50 events mounted, then there was no need for me to come back here. So I didn't.
Correct me if I am wrong and I will stay out of here.

Respectfully
Patrick Peterson
Mounted Bugler
Fella who tries real hard

[Coatsy]

Re: Open Discussion about Moderating / Membership Disagreements

Some Points from my perspective as a user on the AC.

~ Folks if you have a beef with a post. Don't sit there and fume over it while waiting for a mod to check it. There are a finite number of moderators here. There are THOUSANDS of posts. Click the warning button to let them know. Do your part.

~ So what if some of the moderators don't make to the top EBUFU events these days. Oh dear! But they have the time to moderate the forum while most of us are busy with our lives, family, work, other hobbies (gasp! other hobbies!) It is easy to whine about Jim K, Paul, Wickett, Comer, etc being "mean" and not letting your thread of Bo Cefus battle flags continue... but can you seriously say that you have the time to look at all the posts. I might not agree with what these mods say, and sometimes I don't even understand what Kurt is saying in is prose, but these folks have the time to moderate it. So what would happen if these folks were NOT moderating this board?

~ Can you say you spend as much time researching events, gear, field craft, drill, etc as you do trolling these forums??? Bueller?

~ So folks that don't take to the field for events any more cannot post historical research, cultural research, gear research on this forum??? Seriously???? The purpose of this forum is to share information about the ACW or as my grandmother calls it "the War for Southern Independence." If I never ever ever ever see Curt in the field at an event I'm not going to flip out if he moderates my post on this forum.

And as always if this board makes you soooooo angry... Start your own up that is better than this one. I'd like to seee that.

Come hear to learn, post about the ACW, share research about time period, share event info, sell your gear, be polite folks. No one likes an asshat.


Also read the "Campaigner's Manifesto" and the civilian version as well. Being a "campaginer" does require LEARNING about different aspects about the ACW... Not just going to events. RESEARCH is KEY when to comes to our end of the hobby. This place is designed to SHARE THE RESEARCH and INFORMATION. Having 300 guys looking "kewl" in kit in the field is pointless if you don't know ahead of time what the hoo hah you are trying to recreate. If Old Man McGhee who can't take the field has a great letter regarding the 1000th Arkansas at the Battle of Prarie Groverton I want him to post it here and share the knowledge.

[robert-m]

Re: Open Discussion about Moderating / Membership Disagreements

I have to agree with Double P, Pete, Jim, Herb and Johnny on this. I know first hand of at least 5 people that have tried to come on here, and tried to establish themselves in this part of the hobby. After using the search option and with me sitting beside them post a simple question, then someone and then a Mod sent them a PM about how they need to use the search option and do your own leg work. If we all did our own leg work, we would still be in the cave man era. As someone stated the wheel was invited. Then someone improved it. Now what kind of leg work was that. To me LEG WORK is improving what you have and what you would like to have. The 5 or so friends of mine, that are now refusing to take part in any type of event associated with this forum because they were threw under the bus so to speak by the guys that are supposed to help. The someone was rude and shunned these people from this forum in away. The Mod, was tactful in the way they talked to these people. Long story short. I still have a lot to learn, we all do. If we have learned it all then we should be dead. But in my opinion people need to get their head out of there butt, its not up there for the smell, but the warmth of their self centered righteousness

There is a need for those that have come before us. Are you going to tell a WWII vet that he serves no purpose. It's sort of the same thing, with what is going on with the Admins, and Mods. EVERYONE has a valid point in things they say. Be temperate of others. The Bible states that the tongue is the hardest thing to control. Yes, I read the bible. But no one here is old enough to have been there. FAITH is what we all have in the good book. Faith is also something we must have in the Admins and Mods

[flattop32355]

Re: Open Discussion about Moderating / Membership Disagreements

As can sometimes happen, here and elsewhere, the conversation can become polarized as each respondent seeks to reinforce his/her strongly felt positions, believing them to be of more weight than those of other folks who believe the same about their positions.

So far, even when there is some distance between opinions, I've not seen much that doesn't have validity and doses of truth to them.

There's room in the hobby, and here on this forum, for those who are active campaigners, decreasingly (for various reasons) active campaigners, retired campaigners, and others with value to add.

But, then, that wasn't the main topic, now, is it? And that's a whole different kettle of fish.

[Blair]

Re: Open Discussion about Moderating / Membership Disagreements

The thing I care for least in this hobby are those who place their specific requirements, as they preconceive them to be, for authenticity onto others.
YOU play the game by my standards, or YOU cannot play at all! Or, are simply playing at playing? WTF is that all about ?
Knowing full well that there is NO standards that have ever been established. None, that is to say, any two such individuals will, or can ever agree on. Allowing them to set themselves up with their own Fiefdoms.

It was suggested by an Organizer of a Living History event, as a good demonstration, I could defarb a repro musket in front of the public.
My suggestion was, that was not an accurate historical activity. THEY did not need to defarb their firearms in the time period.
Now, how farby can an "REAL campaigner minded individual" get and still be so active in reenacting events?
BTW, I am a heck of a lot more retired from reenacting then Curt is.
Good golly molly, when is this double standard SOS going to come to an end?

[MassVOL]

Re: Open Discussion about Moderating / Membership Disagreements

What if the moderation of the site was done Anonymously with a standard mod comment box and stock comments instead of by a specific person thereby opening them up to specific attacks. That way when moderators commented on threads as members it would be through their member profile and there would be no mixed messages. The stock comments would help anyone from taking a rebuke personally and also not come across with any kind of emotion but still get the job done.

[plankholder]

Re: Open Discussion about Moderating / Membership Disagreements

Okay, I'll bite...
Let me preface by making two statements; Mr. Kindred, when I came into this hobby in EARLY 90's, I cut my teeth on your research and doctrine-for that I have the utmost respect for you and will always be in your debt. That being said, you are grumpy, heavy handed and unapproachable(other than that I am sure we would get along fine). Kurt, despite your constant and annoying use of pidgin German(which gives me flashbacks to Howenfeld), you are THE MAN when it comes to period armamant. These two facts cannot be disputed by anyone on this forum, period. I think that we all do(or should) appreciate the role that ALL of the MODS fulfil. As far as being active-I have only been to ONE event this year, of course I have spent the year in Baghdad, but I guess we all have our excuses. I have long been a proponant of the mindset, that everyone gets what they want(or need) out of this hobby and everyone's wants(or needs) are valid. My understanding, is that this is a forum designed the culture the sharing of information, and growth of our chosen hobby. Im am afraid that it does neither very effectivly anymore. I am contacted several times a year by new people interested in our hobby, in search of direction, I know better than to steer them to this forum. Its a shame, possibly a mortal sin, that this forum which offers the most exspansive collection of pertinant information, as well as subject matter experts-also has a near monopoly of a@@holes. The average life expectancy of a beginner or "new fish"(stupid term) is about 36 seconds, before they are driven to the mainstream masses. We should ALL be ashamed of that. This hobby is full of personalities, is full of pricks(self included)-if any of us were normal, we would be home doing something more productive than eating beef liver and filtering coffee beans through our teeth. This is my biggest complaint, this has become a social forum for an elite mafia. We arent doing ourselves or the hobby any justice, we have lost our way. Why are numbers down at events? The economy sucks, and reenactors are neurotic a-holes, pretty simple. We need to reexamine ourselves as a collective group and find a new direction. We need to become approachable and forward moving. This site should be about the advancement of the hobby, not about what you wear, or what crap you put on your signature block-no one cares. Gentlemen(and ladies), labels are for can goods and magazines, if you think you are hardcore, your lying to yourself-if you think you are progressive, your not(nothing is new under the sun) ALL of the "authentics" died a century and a half ago. If the forum is for "Living Historians" then it should be moderated by "Living Historians", active living historians(if you do a few events a year, you are active in my book). That being said, we cant afford to let the knowledge of individuals like Mr. Kindred pass through our fingers, no matter how prickly he may be-there has to be a place for him here. I would encourage Mr. Kindred, "the AC mafia", the forum members, and whomever else it may apply to, to lighten up-this isnt real. No matter how you glorify what we do, its still make belief. Personal differences aside, the big problem is that this forum is not serving its desire purpose-maybe we need a few new MODS(I know most of them and as individuals, they are fine people), maybe we need a few new members-personally I believe its BOTH. Thats my opinion and we all know what opinions are like, dont we? Mrs. Lawson, as well as all the other ladies of the congregation, I apologize for my language-you know where to find me if a spoon thrashing is in order. This has been interesting, lets see if it will be productive.