Do You Support the Current Movement to Remove Confederate Monuments?

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Do You Support the Current Movement to Remove Confederate Monuments?

Since we are off topic of just Civil War comparing monuments here...

True fact: There is a German WW2 cemetery, complete with statues, in France in Normandy. And the French don't try to remove its monuments... because, y'know, HISTORY and HEALING, n'stuff is important.

High ranking Nazis are buried there, too... REAL NAZIs. I have been there before. Every soldier deserves a grave.

:/

http://www.dday.center/cemetery_de_lacambe.html

[Tyler Underwood]

Re: Do You Support the Current Movement to Remove Confederate Monuments?

And the statues in the South (at least the big equestrian statues of Lee and Davis and others in middle of cities), for historical context, were defiant statements by Unreconstucted people, placed as challenges to the federal government and the freedmen.

Here are a couple of speeches that were delivered at the dedication of the Caddo Parish monument. They don't sound like defiant statements or challenges to the federal government but instead speak in remembrance of sacrifice and the loss of fathers, sons, brothers and husbands. But, I only have a mid western high school education, so my understanding of the English language might be a little different than yours.


Edward H. Randolph, US District Attorney for the Western District

of Louisiana, said:

All over the Southland the United Daughters of the Confederacy have erected monuments to perpetuate the memory of brave and devoted sons of the South who bled and died for the principles embodied in the cause for which the Stars and Bars were so heroically created and defended.

For we believe that all the great reforms among the nations, and all the mighty strides of the people towards constitutional government and personal liberty have had their genesis and their clearest expressions in the principles for which the Confederate soldier fought and died. We all agree that the deeds of the men who followed Lee and Jackson and Beauregard are imperishable in history—and that such monuments as this, erected by the noble women of our land who even excelled our brave soldiers in their sublime devotion and in the self-sacrifice they made to the cause are eminently calculated to perpetuate the memory of the men who sacrificed their all on the altar of such sacred principles.



Another speaker at the monument dedication, Methodist Reverend Dr. W.T. Bolling, said the following:

This occasion . . . has a meaning far beyond the mere exhibition of a beautiful work of art chiseled by the hand of genius from the cold and shapeless stone. It means more than the loyal devotion and unremitting toil of these noble women (of the UDC) in making this . . .possible. It means a tribute of love to the memory of the most remarkable body of men ever engaged in war’s bloody strife, whose deeds gained for them the respect of their enemies and the admiration of the rest of the civilized peoples of the world, and whose setting sun, going down behind the clouds of defeat, left an eternal stream of military glory along the path of martial fame and threw the light of pride of a nation upon the tomb of the dead Confederacy.

The men who went forth to battle under this banner were not actuated by hate, by desire for conquest, or to maintain the institution of slavery, but battled for what they believed to be a great fundamental doctrine, a foundation principle in a government founded upon the consent of the governed.

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Who arranged for the placement of these statues?
Who were the primary donors?
What was the stated purpose of the statue at the time it was put in place?

I am still trying to track it down for the NOLA monuments, but the Caddo Parish monument money was raised by the Shreveport UDC Chapter. They began fundraising in 1893. $10,000 later they had a monument to dedicate.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Do You Support the Current Movement to Remove Confederate Monuments?

"All over the Southland the United Daughters of the Confederacy have erected monuments to perpetuate the memory of brave and devoted sons of the South who bled and died for the principles embodied in the cause for which the Stars and Bars were so heroically created and defended."

And that would be the "cause" described in the Cornerstone Speech and the declarations several states issued to accompany their articles of secession: https://www.civilwar.org/learn/prima...eceding-states

Which makes this part of the second speech an example of self-serving myth:

"The men who went forth to battle under this banner were not actuated by hate, by desire for conquest, or to maintain the institution of slavery, but battled for what they believed to be a great fundamental doctrine, a foundation principle in a government founded upon the consent of the governed."

It should be unnecessary, but perhaps isn't, to point out that the principle of "consent of the governed" did not apply to the majority of people living in the first two states to secede.

I'm not from the midwest; I'm from Virginia and was raised on this crap. It had its effect, though, as I said earlier. It took me decades to stumble through the compost of the Confederacy and come upon real local history. And for most of the last century this county was as "rebel" as any in the south. But one of the ironies of the advent of the new, more cosmopolitan and diverse era that seems to scare so many people is that Arlington County now has come closer to the way it actually was in 1861, when the vote at Ball's Cross Roads went about three to one against secession...

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Since we are off topic of just Civil War comparing monuments here...

True fact: There is a German WW2 cemetery, complete with statues, in France in Normandy. And the French don't try to remove its monuments... because, y'know, HISTORY and HEALING, n'stuff is important.

High ranking Nazis are buried there, too... REAL NAZIs. I have been there before. Every soldier deserves a grave.

:/

http://www.dday.center/cemetery_de_lacambe.html

Johnny, along the lines of "depends" and "context" I'll happily reconsider my stance if the argument becomes one about cemeteries and battlefield memorials. Until then, I'm not sure how two statues of mourners equate to statues of the men who did so much to create mourners...

[NMVolunteer]

Re: Do You Support the Current Movement to Remove Confederate Monuments?

Tyler, that is the same problem that people have experienced for centuries. They cannot separate the actions of the politicians and top-ranking generals from the motivations of the average soldiers. Southern soldiers were citizen conscripts, and they had a wide variety of motivations. So why, if the UDC wanted to honor those citizen conscripts, would they put up statues of the generals and the politicians? There are a variety of different memorials they could have used, so why go with equestrian statues of Lee and Davis and others? How many statues of von Rundstedt do you find in German town squares and war cemeteries?

[john duffer]

Re: Do You Support the Current Movement to Remove Confederate Monuments?

Tyler, that is the same problem that people have experienced for centuries. They cannot separate the actions of the politicians and top-ranking generals from the motivations of the average soldiers. Southern soldiers were citizen conscripts, and they had a wide variety of motivations. So why, if the UDC wanted to honor those citizen conscripts, would they put up statues of the generals and the politicians? There are a variety of different memorials they could have used, so why go with equestrian statues of Lee and Davis and others? How many statues of von Rundstedt do you find in German town squares and war cemeteries?

So under the 'it depends' category there's a statue in the town square of Franklin Tennessee since 1899 of a single Confederate soldier that is dedicated to the Confederate soldiers that served during during the Civil War. The UDC raised $2,700 for the statue and $600 for the knoll it stands on. These women felt they were honoring fathers, sons, husbands, brothers that didn't come home or didn't come back whole. Should this come down? I'd like you to chime in on this one as well Michael. Consider this an informal poll on one specific monument. War criminals or local heroes?

[NMVolunteer]

Re: Do You Support the Current Movement to Remove Confederate Monuments?

Local heroes. It is no different than us showing up at events as Private John Doe. The Lee, Davis, and Forrest equestrian statues are the people showing up to events as specific historical generals (and looking silly in the process).

[Tyler Underwood]

Re: Do You Support the Current Movement to Remove Confederate Monuments?

So why, if the UDC wanted to honor those citizen conscripts, would they put up statues of the generals and the politicians? There are a variety of different memorials they could have used, so why go with equestrian statues of Lee and Davis and others?

Respect! The people had the same respect for the politicians, generals and common soldiers alike. The Generals very easily could have resigned their commissions, but instead chose to continue and lead their men. The politicians and generals were elected and or asked to do a very tough job and they chose to do it. As I believe one person stated earlier, many of the common soldiers from New Orleans served faithfully under those men, and there are many monuments throughout the south and Louisiana that are dedicated to the rank and file soldier. I would also like to say that a General officer is also very much a soldier as well.
When being asked and or elected to these positions, you have to look at things from a 19th century point of view. Honor and family was a big deal in those days and these men had tough decisions to make. Imagine for a second, and not from a modern standpoint, if you were asked to lead a portion of an army against the United States and totally turn your back on your family. How would you respond? Imagine for one second how General George Thomas felt when he left his native state of Virginia to serve the United States. Imagine how he felt knowing that his family entirely disowned him.
After the war veterans had set their wartime differences aside at reunions. I am sure you know of the very famous photograph of US and CS veterans shaking hands across the stone wall at Gettysburg. How about General Longstreet serving as the guest speaker at the reunion of the 79th New York at Fort Sanders in Knoxville? Heck, Joe Wheeler and Fitzhugh Lee went on to serve in the United States Army after the Civil War. These were good men who at the time, thought what they were doing was the right thing to do.
Bottom line is CS monuments regardless if it is General Lee, Jackson, Beauregard or Davis is a monument to a person who was perfectly willing to sacrifice everything for something greater than themselves.

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Local heroes. It is no different than us showing up at events as Private John Doe. The Lee, Davis, and Forrest equestrian statues are the people showing up to events as specific historical generals (and looking silly in the process).

Confederate soldiers, be it a private all the way to general were hero's to these people. So in a sense they are local hero's.

[NMVolunteer]

Re: Do You Support the Current Movement to Remove Confederate Monuments?

My father's side of the family consisted of German and Canadian immigrants who were just recent arrivals living in Wisconsin, or the children of those recent arrivals, so from their perspective, it was all just America. So, they would be confused by the idea of Lee and Jackson and Longstreet turning their backs on their native country to serve a regional insurrection. I do understand what it is like to be disowned by a family, but we do not need to get into that.

EDIT:
Although technically speaking, many of those officers did resign their commissions. And some were caught up in Secretary of War Floyd's treason. The south is not the only area with a historical perspective.

[rbrewer]

Re: Do You Support the Current Movement to Remove Confederate Monuments?

I support leaving the statues where they are.
Bob Brewer
Gaithersburg,MD

[teufelhund]

Re: Do You Support the Current Movement to Remove Confederate Monuments?

So, do you have your relatives diaries that say this or just speculation on your part? From what I have read, many new immigrants were pretty much impressed into service when they entered into the country whether north or south. Perhaps some felt the way you state, but to make it a blanket statement on all immigrants is just part of the problem with this modern interpretation of this particular part of history.

You say that Southerner's turned their backs on their country. Maybe you fail to look at it from their perspective that the country turned it's backs on the founding principles of this country and they had no choice other than to leave or continue being part of system that they had no representation in.

In the end, if Southern statues are removed, when will the statues of the Northern officers who voice pro-slavery views be removed from public view? Quite a few of the popular Northern Generals openly talked of insurrection if emancipation was proclaimed. After all, what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

My father's side of the family consisted of German and Canadian immigrants who were just recent arrivals living in Wisconsin, or the children of those recent arrivals, so from their perspective, it was all just America. So, they would be confused by the idea of Lee and Jackson and Longstreet turning their backs on their native country to serve a regional insurrection. I do understand what it is like to be disowned by a family, but we do not need to get into that.

EDIT:
Although technically speaking, many of those officers did resign their commissions. And some were caught up in Secretary of War Floyd's treason. The south is not the only area with a historical perspective.

[NMVolunteer]

Re: Do You Support the Current Movement to Remove Confederate Monuments?

Of course, you are looking at it purely from the Southern perspective, which ignores the Northern perspective. I have read journals and accounts of immigrants, only one being an ancestor. They have an interesting point of view, especially the Germans in Texas. One of my ancestors was a Canadian who was sent home from his Wisconsin volunteer regiment during the siege of Vicksburg, because he was too old and infirm to fight.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Do You Support the Current Movement to Remove Confederate Monuments?

So, do you have your relatives diaries that say this or just speculation on your part? From what I have read, many new immigrants were pretty much impressed into service when they entered into the country whether north or south. Perhaps some felt the way you state, but to make it a blanket statement on all immigrants is just part of the problem with this modern interpretation of this particular part of history.

Certainly not all immigrants, who much like all the other boys just wanted to go off with their new neighbors, but quite a few Germans were strong supporters of free labor and the republic. The 48ers, for example, fielded several regiments. There may have been an Irish Brigade in the AoP, but Blenker commanded an entire division.

For documentation you can see Wilhelm Kaufmann's book published more than a century ago, along with more recent works like Rowan and Primm's "Germans for a Free Missouri."

Several years ago I posted a little paper on this site about the 8th NY at Cross Keys. You can find in it quotes like these from letters home:

The Prussian soldier Albert Krause wrote: "As far as I am concerned, I am off to the fire filled with courage and enthusiasm. The United States have taken me in, I have earned a living here, and why shouldn’t I defend them, since they are in danger, with my flesh and blood? I don’t want to go back to Germany, especially Prussia – I have tasted freedom, and it tastes too good to trade it again for a dungeon."

August Horstmann of Oldenburg wrote: "As for me, despite all the horrible hardships, despite hunger, rain & sore feet, I am healthier & stronger than ever & this life of war does me good…. But even if I should die in the fight for freedom & the preservation of the Union of this, my adopted homeland, then you should not be too concerned, for many brave sons of the German fatherland have already died on the field of honor, & many more besides me will fall! – Much the same as it is in Germany, the free and industrious people of the North are fighting against the lazy and haughty Junker spirit of the South. But down with the aristocracy who are lacking only in titles, and may industrious and free men revive the glorious soil of the South…"

Correspondence from both men -- and many others -- can be found in Kamphoefner,s "Germans in the Civil War: The Letters They Wrote Home."

"August Willich's Gallant Dutchmen" by Reinhart details the war experiences of one of the foremost of the 48s, a former Prussian aristocrat who dropped the "von," became a communist, led a Freikorps in 48&49, and had as his adjutant there none other than Friedrich Engels. The first regiment he raised, the 9th Ohio, won the battle of Mill Springs at the point of the bayonet, and the second, the 32nd Indiana, defeated a larger force of Texas Rangers at Rowlett's Station. Both regiments were largely raised among the Turnverein and had a definite ideological cast.

None of the above, by the way, were fresh off the boat.

More examples can be found in Ofele's "German-Speaking Officers in the U. S. Colored Troops." One of the more freedom loving, Edelmiro Meyer, who also gets a passing mention in Oliver Wilcox Norton's "Army Letters." Even after the war, when his regiment was relegated to the Rio Grande, he continued his political agitation, crossing into Mexico to harangue a group of Austria officers fighting from Maximillian against the Juaristas.

As for those in the south, while some Germans volunteered for service, others actively resisted rebel conscription. One of the first monuments erected after the war -- an actual veterans monument and a grave site -- is in Comfort, Texas. It bears the inscription "Treue der Union."

[MuleyGil]

Re: Do You Support the Current Movement to Remove Confederate Monuments?

"And for most of the last century this county was as "rebel" as any in the south. But one of the ironies of the advent of the new, more cosmopolitan and diverse era that seems to scare so many people is that Arlington County now has come closer to the way it actually was in 1861, when the vote at Ball's Cross Roads went about three to one against secession..."

Yes, the majority of Virginians, including Col Robert E Lee USA, were against secession UNTIL Lincoln asked for troops to fight in the states that had seceeded. Then Virginians voted to join the other Southern states. Times were different then. People identified more with their state than they did with their country.

I am against removing monuments.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Do You Support the Current Movement to Remove Confederate Monuments?

"And for most of the last century this county was as "rebel" as any in the south. But one of the ironies of the advent of the new, more cosmopolitan and diverse era that seems to scare so many people is that Arlington County now has come closer to the way it actually was in 1861, when the vote at Ball's Cross Roads went about three to one against secession..."

Yes, the majority of Virginians, including Col Robert E Lee USA, were against secession UNTIL Lincoln asked for troops to fight in the states that had seceeded. Then Virginians voted to join the other Southern states. Times were different then. People identified more with their state than they did with their country.

I am against removing monuments.

You're free to vote whichever way you want, but the idea of people identifying more with their state than their country would be news to all the internal immigrants before the civil war (white, of course), as well as men like George Thomas, David Farragut, and Winfield Scott.

Fun fact: for most of his life before he joined the army, Robert E. Lee was actually a resident of the District of Columbia. ;)

[john duffer]

Re: Do You Support the Current Movement to Remove Confederate Monuments?

You're free to vote whichever way you want

Thanks for the clarification Michael, looks like 94 to 20 at present