Progressive? Hardcore??

[Curt Schmidt]

Hallo Kameraden!

Looking beyond the denotation and connotation, as well as personal and collective philosophy that MIGHT be being shared on the "How Do Your Rate Your Impression? thread...

To continue a discussion...

If 69% of the responding membership lists themselves as "Progressive" and
22% as "Hardcore-"

Should we be thinking about changing the name of the AC Forum to "The Progressive Campaigner- A Website for the Progressive Civil War Reenactor?"
As well as changing the purpose, mission, goals and objectives of the AC Forum to better match and attempt to meet the needs of this "majority membership??"

Please do not read or find anything negative, accusatory, between the lines here, or look for an agenda, let alone a criticism or a "call to question" here!

I am just trying to promote discussion on a quiet Friday night, and carry another thread forward... :-)

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[Lone_Rebel87]

Re: Progressive? Hardcore??

I think that we should leave it as the A/C because it is helping those progressives who are trying to become more authentic and ever slowly reaching forward..Myself being one of them I think that it is good for it to stay and we be able to ask questions of the 22% who say they are hardcore to help further our own impressions.

It's fine I say. :)

Jordan Davis

Tis a kind of quiet night though isn't it?? ;)

[FriendlyFire104]

Re: Progressive? Hardcore??

What is hardcore, progressive, mainstream and farb? A book I have in my possession titled "Reliving the Civil War, A Reenactor's handbook" R. Lee Hadden suggested these definitions to the factions of reenacting.

Hardcores: the ultra-authentic, who would take authenticity to extremes, trying to attain as close to 100% accuracy as possible. Many prefer the term "progressive"

Progressive: new term for hard-core reenactors, it implies someone who is going further into research and correct impression

Mainstream: (is not listed)

Farb: nonperiod, non-authentic equipment or the person who uses it, also known as “cowboy or polyester soldier". variations on the term include, farbette, barble, farb-fest, farb-o-thon. (Then it goes on to explain the origin of the word)

This book suggests that their is no difference between hardcores and progressive and fails to believe in the existence of "mainstream"

Bob,

Upon registration with our forum, you promised to abide by our Rules & Regulations (http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1034), yet you ingored one of our most basic rules by not signing your post - this is your FIRST WARNING.

Scott McKay, moderator
Authentic Campaigner Forums

[Andrew Jarvi]

Re: Progressive? Hardcore??

I think it should stay AC. Being a progressive re-enactor I have learned greatly from those of you that are hard core. Though I must admit I will always consider myself progressive because as you all have proven there are sooooo many ways to improve one's impression. One thing I am working on other than my kit is to shed some pounds. Though I will always be my height and be built like a lumberjack, the gut needs to go.

Respectfully
Andrew Jarvi
Capt. 5th USCT

[JimConley]

Re: Progressive? Hardcore??

I think the forums are fine the way they are. Granted, we have had many new comers lately and they ask the same questions, but things like that are to be expected when word gets out and people find the interest in authenticity.
As far as the poll goes, I'm torn (Hardcore interior, Progressive exterior). I would rate myself progressive for a couple of reasons, but hardcore on some others. I have the hardcore spirit and mentality, but obstacles come into play. First and foremost, as a poor college boy, I gather gear when I have the chance. I've made some great purchases, but am never satisfied with my impression. Also, money halts 7 and 10 hour drives to Virginia and the deep south for good events most of the time. Not too many good events in Kentucky (But we've got Shaker Village this fall!) I would say overall, I'm progressive. Until I can be happy with my appearance and experience, I'll be progressing. I think that many may have run into some of the same?

[PrivateRBDavis]

Re: Progressive? Hardcore??

Yeah, I would agree with the idea that the forum gives us a standard to aim for. Without that strict standard, it would be easier to fall into complacency. Speaking for myself, had I not found this forum I would still be floudering in my former mindset which was "frustrated mainstreamer". I'll always consider myself progressive and will never be 100% contented with my impression. But here, I'm amongst comrades whose knowledge I trust and whose advice I can take seriously.

Also, to Bob... The Hadden book is a good place to get some basic information and some laughs (the chapter with the list of "questions from spectators" is hilarious), but I don't consider it a progressive book. Even when I was mainstream, I winced at the notion of carrying Imodium in my haversack or Gatorade in my dipper.

[James Masson]

Re: Progressive? Hardcore??

Not to change the subject here but Jim Conley says:

Until I can be happy with my appearance and experience, I'll be progressing. I think that many may have run into some of the same?

My question is, when does the progression stop? You can look like you travelled from the past or stepped right out of a picture but your learning and your progression should never stop. Every member of these boards (and every reenactor in "the hobby") should always be looking for new information that will progress their knowledge of the time period we all love so much.

[Hank Trent]

Re: Progressive? Hardcore??

Should we be thinking about changing the name of the AC Forum to "The Progressive Campaigner- A Website for the Progressive Civil War Reenactor?"

Words are words. (shrug)

"Authentic" was probably the most common jargon in the hobby for "historically accurate" about the time the AC forum was named, and everyone knew it could also mean "very very close to accurate, at least moreso than those other guys," :D Though there was not necessarily any implication that an "authentic reenactor" had any interest in improving, since he might perceive himself at the pinnacle of perfection.

But if you think about it too closely, no reenactor can be "authentic" in the sense of literally 100% "accurate." And that's not even touching the totally different meaning "authentic" has in the antique-collecting hobby.

So I think the literal meaning of "progressive" is closer to the site's mission, i.e. for reenactors who want to improve continually toward unattainable accuracy. But unfortunately the current jargon meaning of "progressive" within the hobby is "someone with an impression a little better than mainstream but not as good as some," which doesn't fit the site's mission.

If a group is influential enough, it can claim its own personal definitions. Because they were big enough and old enough to do it, the NAACP has stuck with "colored" through numerous changes in the meaning of their word. I can remember when it was considered an insult almost right up there with the "n" word, and you wouldn't dare use it *except* as part of "NAACP," but now it's back in favor again.

I think the AC forum is influential enough to claim that the definition of "authentic" is whatever the forum says it is when they use it in their title, regardless of how the literal meaning or connotation of "authentic" comes and goes in the hobby. If the forum says it means "closer to accuracy than most and continually trying to improve," then that's what it does.

But what about "campaigner"? We haven't even touched that can of worms. :D I'd guess it's another throwback left from the days when the assumption was that every reenactment was about a battle, so "authentic" reenactors slept without tents while farbs/mainstreamers set up (cough) "garrison camps" with no regard for historical context or even an accurate depiction of a garrison.

Again, I think the AC forum is big enough to claim that the definition of "campaigner" is what the forum says it is, and if it means, "reenactors who adapt their living conditions to the specific historic situation at the event," then by golly, "authentic" reenactments of garrison situations, prisons, mustering, recruiting, etc., are all by definition "campaigner" events and on-topic for the forum.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[BarryDusel]

Re: Progressive? Hardcore??

I like the title of the forum. It serves as a magnet to those searching for the "truth". "Authentic-Campaigner" has a certain panache. I'd suggest that we never even entertain the thought of altering it. Yet, IMO, the last authentic HC campaigner departed this earth physically over 44 years ago. Yet they do continue to live on in our memory and because of that they will never die. So it should be for us to perpetuate them forever. Yet it cheapens their memory if any of us think that we could ever walk in their shoes.
That said.
While there are many of us that would like to consider ourselves 'Hard Core" . Are we really? Think about the words. What's HC? HC is someone so dedicated that they will stop at nothing to do it right. Progressive, to me, the connotation is that this is someone who is evolving and always seeking to better themslves and to better educate. Every HC I've ever known, from day 1 of the movement , has evolved. At 1 time CD Jarnagin was considered by many to be a provider of goods for the HC community. Before that many considered themslves HC only if they were wearing original "goodies" off of Bannermans Island. Today, I don't think anyone who considers themslf to be HC would even consider wearing "original items" Many that consider themself to be a "really"good impression won't even carry an original firearm. Because our thought process now dictates that if we are to portray a soldier , in our case. 1861/1865. Then our overall impression should be of a as issued ACW "GI". There just aren't too many firearms that meet the criteria of a recently issued item that we could afford , monetarily or otherwise, to carry in the field. I guess what we need then to relieze, IMO, after 30 + years of observation . Is that we are all progressive. Even the most'HC" are really "progressive" . We are all evolving. I relieze that while what I wear today is "the best". For the next generation it will probably be mainstream. How many of us can say we are 2nd generation and I guess even 3rd generation for this endeavour? If you are. Try to think back. I think I can safely say this. Some of our parents and Grand Parents thought that their "kits" were "Titz". Today, we laugh at the "super 8's" of the 1st NSSA shoots and the Centennial re-enactments. Yet at that time there were many who considered themsleves "HC and authentic" . My Old friend George Gorman being one of them. Yet when I think back and remember his kit. While it was cutting edge for his day. For this day , it is and would be just barely main stream .
I gotta stop now. To close.Each generation will hopefully continue the upward climb. It's up to all of us to be "progressive" so that there can always be a HC among us.

[JACKSONVC]

Re: Progressive? Hardcore??

Pards,
I think that by keeping the site as is, we are promoting the best virtues of the Authentic living historian. There is a wealth of knowledge shared daily on this site that is benefitual to any and all who visit and participate. Be ye a progressive, hardcore or visitor, this site provides a great and valued service to anyone trying to improve and refine their impression. Of the folks that I have run into and worked with, no one is ever really satisified with their impression, there is always something missing or some detail not yet attained.
By setting high standards, teaching and discussing topics, this forum will continue to provide to both progressive and hardcores alike. One must remember that the folks that participate here voluntarily applied to participate in order to gain knowledge and resources to improve and enhance themselves within their impression. I think that any lessening of standards or content will hurt the forum. I for one really enjoy the most of the postings and discussions, I learn some new little tidbit every day and would really like to see that continue as I think most want as well. I am not saying that by changing a name the forum would change its mission and goals, but if one is shooting for a standard, why not shoot for the highest one available.

[10nycav]

Re: Progressive? Hardcore??

I'd say, leave it as is. By definition progressives are trying to progress towards a more authentic impression. Might as well set the sights high. (I also suspect that some of the "progressives" actually would fit quite well into the ranks of the hardcores/authentics but because they realize this is a never ending journey and there is always room for improvement, they would hesitate to call themselves authentic/hardcore.)

Ken Morris
10th Regt of Cavalry NYSV.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Progressive? Hardcore??

Hallo Kameraden!

To further the disccussion, I am going to put on the Hat of Devil's Advocate.

IMHO, the general "thrust" here, and one I fully agree with, is that "this" is a
Journey and not a Destination type of philosophy- the striving and pursuit of the Impossible State of Perfection- a direction somewhere between "here" and how we view what and how many aspects of the Civil War soldiers' (and civillians') lives we can, should, and do recreate or reexperience.

Along thos elines, because there are so many different and differeing, conflicitng and complimenting "Mental Picutures" and leels/interests/aplications/activities we tend to, usually, look to put the massive CW Reenacting and Living History Umbrella into this paradigm (Model):

F/M/C/P/H/A

But, if we say we are "Progressives" simply because we hold the view, opinion, and sometimes practice that we all students of the Past and strive to move forward/evolve/learn/grow/progress- what it ACTUALLY SAY about our Mental Picutures then?
I am a Militant Farb who was butt-stroked during a charge, and am now a self-styled and self-declared "Progressive (Farb)" as I now strive to start to move forward/evolve/learn/grow/progress toward being a "Progressive (Mainstreamer)."
I am a Farb who was struck by lightning while loading my musket in the rain, and now am a self-styled and self-declared hardcore, no, authentic!
And I find the AC Forum for the "authentic campaigner." Well, obviously, that's me!

And here comes the Devil's Advocate: Does the AC Forum have a mission,
function, purpose, charge, goal, responsibility, duty, ability, etc., etc.., to its membership to serve the needs of any F/M/C/P/H/A person soley on the basis that they self-declare and self-describe themselves as being "Progressive?"
The Devil's Advocate questions that "Progressive: is half of a two word descroption meaning little or nothing concrete or tangible oterh than a notion that one needs to learn., grow, and improve. The better term, being "Progressive What?" Which would make the paradigm:

F/PF/M/PM/C/PC/P/PP/H/PH/PA/A

Which really tells us nothing, and enables us to do nothing with the model?

So, how dare we shut down or close the posts of the PF or PM or PC person then?)

Again, as before, I am not criticizing or calling into negative question anyone does, or what we do here, or try to accomplish here- I am just trying to promote the discussion.

Is, or should, the AC Forum be then:

The Progressive Campaigner- A Website for the Progressive F/M/C/P/H/Aer?

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt
Heretic Mess

[TheFenian]

Re: Progressive? Hardcore??

Curt,

Having done this CW stuff for years and listened to the name-calling for years and suffered through the attempt to pigeonhole reenactors for the same period, I have a few thoughts to add.

First and foremost, DO NOT change the name. I agree with the concept that our attempts are a journey, not a destination. Leaving it as A/C defines the goal, even if it never 100% attainable. Heaven, Nirvana, Paradise if you will depeding upon your persuasion. We need a target. Progessive is the journey; A/C is the goal.

Secondly, you as moderators have done a excellent job of maintaining the director. We need at least one forum with very high standards.

Thirdly, we all need to keep in mind the concept of "Hate the sin; love the sinner." Continue to work with the less enlightened with exclusion and we will get more converts.

Last but not least, Sometimes by trying too hard we ourselves affect the goal. The true CW experience is found not by seeking it but by being ready for it when it happens. (Zen and the Art of CW Reenacting/LH :wink_smil )

We control ourselves and will work together better by not categorizing and excluding, but by gently leading by example and education.

Bill Eiff
The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle Mess

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Progressive? Hardcore??

Hallo Kameraden!

Note: The Devil's Advocate Hat is still on here...

"The usefulness of a cup lies in its emptiness." -Zen Proverb

We have had discussions and debates on the merits and weaknesses, value and folly, of "hobby terms" and "hobby labels" many times.
Yet, we still victim to the lack of anything meaningful and useful when it comes to determining and accessing the CW Community's "players" and "playing fields."

How "we" view those on the Path somewhere "behind us" as well as somewhere "ahead of us" is a critical factor, but also one that carries with it perceptions and practices that often tend to be set by the "level" one occupies.

If it were that simple, and if there were not widespread Mental Pictures in tohught as well as deed- then we would be just two groupings or just two groups of players: Progressives and Non-Progressives.

But, if I am an organizer of an EBUFU H/A "level" event that needs a certain measure of H/A quality and quantity in terms of impressions/persona, clothing and gear, and activities/applications what exactly does "I am a Progressive" say to me? If I am chosing individual players and/or units tha have the "quality and quantity" to carry over the goals and objectives of a particular EBUFU event- how exactly do I invite the "players" to take the field?

I have been to EBUFU events that were supposedly "juried," and "invitations" extended only to this lads and units who could meet the "criteria" for the event. However, at these events were so-called F, M, and C level players who obviously COULD NOT contribute to, let alone support the goals and objectives.

This can quickly become a "philosophy" of always taking two steps forward, looking back, and taking three steps backward to help the lad coming in at the back end of the parade.
While that may be fine for the Progressive M-er bringing along the Progressive F-er, or the Progressive C-er bringing up the Progressive M-er. But how does this work:

"hi I am 13 and a hardcore athenthic i am new to reenacting. can anyone tell me if the north wore blue... if they did, did the South. are powder blue LEvi jeans okay to ware DO you have to eat hardtacks? your progessive pard. Sean McCool. Skatebord Mess"

or

After driving 14 hours to the OUTPOST event, to be assigned to a rifle pit for the weekend with the "Progressive" out on his third "reenactment, and a "Progressive" in his second year of Mainstream life"

To some, some of our H/A lads, the "chutes and ladders" effect of this is burning them out and driving them out as they can never get further down the Path as long as two steps go forward for everyone back to and for the
"progressive guy" somewhere behind.

I am reminded of when everyone was made gray by George Orr to avoid problems and strife in THE LATHE OF HEAVEN. (1980)
Are we doing the same thing here by saying we are "Progressives?"

Once again, I am trying to pull things forward for the point of discussion- not criticizing or being negative.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt
Devil's Advocate Mess

[dave81276]

Re: Progressive? Hardcore??

I'll admit that I was a mainstreamer when I started this hobby. I hope that, by the tutelage of some friends on this board and in my mess that I can now call myself a progressive. I have to agree with Bill that, while the movement maintain high standards, the A/C should still encourage people to make the leap from mainstream towards authenticism via progressivism. I don't think the name of the board matters that much, although it may symbolically show converts like myself the goal for which we strive by becoming progressives. I certainly don't see why the name should change.

-Dave Eggleston