How do you motivate others or improve the hobby?

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Reenactor w/Health Problems......Fitting in..

Hallo!

"Isn’t that what the artillery is for?'

While the intent may have been humor, it detracts from the spirit of the question and the rules of the AC Forum for "No Farbism" and "Be Nice."

It is a goal of the AC Forum to encourage and promote authentcity in impressions and activities, and "authentic campaigning" in all aspects of Civil War reenacting and living history.

Curt
Moderator Hat On

[nick19thind]

Re: Reenactor w/Health Problems......Fitting in..

The Veteran Reserve Corps.
If there's none in your area, stay with your unit and wear a sky blue jacket.
They received lighter duties than able-bodied soldiers and could be found attached to regiments as provosts, guards, nurses, cooks, drivers, signallers etc. Old veterans often helped train new recruits. Some fought in battles with muskets or as gunners.
As a VRC reenactor you might serve as an interpreter or perform scenarios in the camp (such as guarding enemy prisoners), maybe fighting battles or drilling the fresh fish if you choose to do so.

[Cfarrell]

Re: Reenactor w/Health Problems......Fitting in..

Well taking your impression in mind I'll suggest something like a cook or clerk at stationary events such as winter quarters. Though Walkers unit tended not to stay in one place for very long in the winter. Walker's greyhounds were probably the most marched son-of-guns in the entire War. I think they covered every square foot in Louisiana by the end of the War. :D

A home guard impression might be something to consider. The Texas State Troops were very active on the frontier and along the coast. Remember Texas had to defend against indians to the west - Mexican raiders from the south and Fed.'s from everywhere.

Regards,

[jacifus]

Re: Reenactor w/Health Problems......Fitting in..

I actually had an ancestor in the Frontier Battalion during the WBTS. But how would I fit into an event in a Home Guard Role?

[Charles Heath]

Re: Reenactor w/Health Problems......Fitting in..

Jaye,

Perhaps a better question is to ask yourself which events are you planning to attend in the next few years.

[ohpkirk]

Re: Reenactor w/Health Problems......Fitting in..

Jaye,
While still in its infancy, This is something you may want to look into:

http://texasfrontierbrigade.googlepages.com/home

[Hammer]

Re: Hearing aids & hearing protection

I usually cut small pieces of gun cleaning rags to stuff in my ears.
It works very well.

[mtvernon]

Just saying...

In all seriousness, have you considered something along these lines? http://www.journeyknee.com/

[DougCooper]

The Back to the Mainstream Movement

The healthy discussion on the Mill Springs thread was closed, so I want to reopen it here - to wit:

How do we become better soldiers and officers when the vast majority of our CPH events are too small to permit the kinds of manuevering and tactical decision making the original soldiers and officers constantly faced?

I am not talking about gear obviously, nor school of the soldier, nor shelter tents or no tents. It does us little good to be clad in Charlie Childs uniforms and sleep on the ground when we can't manuever 5 companies in a battalion from column into line and vice versa, don't recognize bugle calls and never get to work closely with a sizable number of cavalry or manuever through a gun line...or be part of a Grand Guard that is more than one reserve, 3 outposts and nine picket posts. Its not our "fault" - we just rarely get a chance to do it.

Chickamauga and BGR this year brought this to the forefront. I attended both.

BGR was an arduous and very unusual event. Well planned and well executed, it pitted 3 companies on each side against each other in a 5 day running fight that featured the kinds of decision making opportunities we rarely get to see. I saw a tremendous variance in tactical skill and decision making and knowledge of basic drill, as well as how a grand guard worked, etc, but by the end, everyone was a better soldier. It was a superb event for training in tactical decision making, skirmish, and soldier craft - and the event taught the soldiers how all this stuff works, when many of them had never faced these types of situations before. And yet intially it was decried by a number of hardcores (mostly hardkewls) as unworthy because it would be too large, too long and would never work out anyway. Wrong.

Chickamauga featured something we rarely get to do, but that ALWAYS happens at larger events - school of the battalion. In the ranks we had some of the most progressive folks in the hobby, and yet we could not do some simple battalion manuevers effectively because of a lack of experience and opportunity. We were all amazed at the skirmish line of 300 yards run by the bugle. But now take that same skirmish line, put it in the woods and pit it against an opposing line and manuever it, requiring quick decision making on the part of the officers and individual soldiers...a rare chance in the CPH world. Chickamauga was eye opening and extremely valuable as a training event.

The more Chickamauga's we can do, the better, and it ought to be the goal of every NPS event such as this to field at least 3 companies if space permits. Good for the NPS, good for the spectators and way good for us. Nothing like 2 days of school of the battalion with plenty of room. Thanks to those CPH organizations who are making the effort to get a lot of troops in the field for these NPS events.

Outpost is another outstanding chance to learn those skills, and we ought to be able to field at least 150 per side (less than 8% of the AC forum), if in fact we really care about being better soldiers and challenging ourselves. Only by fielding larger numbers can we truly simulate how this really worked at these types of events.

We sell ourselves short by avoiding entirely the larger events such as the NSA and some of the eastern events like September Storm. We look out on the mainstream as something to be avoided instead of looking inward and recognizing what we can learn - we aren't exactly experts on the basic things the original soldiers could do with their eyes closed. There are some mainstream battalions in this hobby who could run tactical circles around us (or form square around us) because it is a normal thing they do at every big event. We aren't exactly experts either at fitting in to the army, with continuous lines, paperwork requirements and the logistical connections up the chain of command and to units around us.

Again, its not our fault, we just don't have the opportunity very often.

10-15 years ago it was no big deal to have to maneuver our battalions within a brigade and we all felt part of the army. Today, that rarely happens and is part of the reason we have continued to fracture into smaller and smaller pieces. 10-15 years ago we needed to work together as functioning battalions because that is what we did at the larger events. Today we have little motivation to organize battalions and instead we have to continually attempt to create adhoc battalions and even companies for events, with all the fun political aspects of that regimen.

I continue to believe that our "end" of the hobby should field authentic battalions at one or two large events per year. Many of us already do. Its about training ourselves at the basic leadership and soldiership skills as part of the army, not just a platoon or a company. Its about giving our rank and file the opportunity to see things really work on a grand scale. And in the process, perhaps we then set an example of what the real soldiers looked like and lived like, something we normally excell at (and which attracts recruits). This ain't Cumbaya folks - its realizing what we have lost by leaving the party, and getting it back. It can't be done on a computer screen.

This does not mean EBUFU is wrong. It just means we need to expand our experience at 1-2 events per year. If we can begin to field 500-1000 men at EBUFU events, this post is moot, but that sure is not how the trend is going.

Said another way, the smaller we get, the smaller we get. If we really want to be better soldiers in an army setting, the training ground is out there at the big events. If we really want more recruits, the pool is out there at bigger events. If we really want to make a difference at preservation, we can lend a hand at the larger events (see the $125,000 raised at the Mill Springs event).

Do we want to?

[Craig L Barry]

Re: How do we get better at being soldiers?

Doug:

Yep, no doubt about it. You have hit the major discussion points and made some sensible recommendations. There is much to discuss here, and rarely has it been laid out as well as you have done it. The trends are what they are but the hobby does not have to be an "either/or proposition." The better questions at this point in time are what events to concentrate on, when and where? Since participation is largely voluntary the experience has to add value for the participant(s). The fact that Mill Springs raised $125K for battlefield preservation is a key point that keeps coming up over and over again in posts on the A-C Forum. I think the battlefield preservation aspect is significant to adding value both for the participant and the event.

EFUBU and the larger events need to be managed in a complementary way, meaning not all one or the other. Both should have their place on the schedule for interested participants and both can yield either positive or negative outcomes depending on how they are managed.

I am not sure this is exactly what you intended, but this direction is how I would like to see the dialog progress...let's not argue about the obvious. We see it happening, we know what we should do...so how best to proceed? My suggestion would be for those serious participants who primarily do EFUBU events, on this forum post recommendations and select a couple non-EFUBU events that are on the actual battlefield land (like Cedar Creek, New Market, Perryville, Mill Springs, etc). Do so knowing those events are not going to be immersion experiences and chose the ones to concentrate on based on the potential for raising funds for battlefield preservation.

[Spinster]

Re: How do we get better at being soldiers?

BGR was an arduous and very unusual event. Well planned and well executed, it pitted 3 companies on each side against each other in a 5 day running fight that featured the kinds of decision making opportunities we rarely get to see. I saw a tremendous variance in tactical skill and decision making and knowledge of basic drill, as well as how a grand guard worked, etc, but by the end, everyone was a better soldier. It was a superb event for training in tactical decision making, skirmish, and soldier craft - and the event taught the soldiers how all this stuff works, when many of them had never faced these types of situations before. And yet intially it was decried by a number of hardcores (mostly hardkewls) as unworthy because it would be too large, too long and would never work out anyway. Wrong.

Doug, I see this as a continum that not only does a better job in excellent portrayals of all aspects of life in the 1860's, but one that also performs a necessary function often missing in our society. Put simply, an opportunity that allows men to bond together in challenging circumstances, makes better MEN. I saw a jagged assemblage of folks on Tuesday. The air was much different even 36 hours later as I stood on a dark road, moving supplies, and could see a good semblance of an army spread in a field. By Friday, the faces were hardly recognizable as the same people. And by Sunday, there was a cohesive army, and individual MEN better for the experience. Even those whose physical limitations took them out of the mix early, and landed them under my mildewed tarp, learned a great deal from that experience.

Just as the sheer length of BGR taught something different that we needed to learn, so do the numbers available at some other events. If I fail to bring away new knowledge from any event, then its because I haven't put enough of myself into it.

Yesterday, I shifted into high gear preparing for a week-long event in an earlier time period. Its an event I've done for a number of years, I know what's coming, and the amount of work I've got to pack into the next 3 weeks to be ready. I also know that I'll learn a good deal in the process of going about daily living for an extended period, even though I've done this before. And I know that the historical site will raise close to $100,000 in that week, if prior totals are a reliable predictor. Win-Win All Around.

[Charles Heath]

Re: The Back to the Mainstream Movement

Doug,

This is the sugar coated version. I'm saying this nicely.

If you want to go back to the mainstream, no one is stopping you. Go. Git. Enjoy. let me open the door for you, and don't let it smack you in the third point of contact. Snack on a funnel cake for me. Have a smoked turkey leg. If you persist in carving out and stomping on the heart of this wing of the hobby, then you may find a certain degree of resistance, especially from those who have dirtied their hands and spent a heck of a lot of time making these things happen. They are some fine people who do not deserve a let's go back to the mainstream slap in the face.

Every year, we endure the call to go back to the mainstream to support bigger events, feast on fabulous sights, support the sutlers, and enjoy all the pagentry, panoramic views, and great things going on at those venues. Wow. Wake up and smell the generator exhaust.

The last time my battalion board of directors asked us to do that very thing was 2002, and the event was 140th Antietam aka "Changing Destiny." As a battalion of nearly 300 pair of boots on the ground, certainly no one at that event came close to squeezing as much blood from that turnip as we did. In the end, we had a good time, but what an incredible waste of resources it turned out to be, save for one take home lesson. That prize has been not one official discussion or motion within the battalion to attend a mainstream event during the period November 2001 to July 2007. At 2nd Kernstown this year, Dave Myrick and James Owens splashed a proposal live and in person to recruit 3 companies to jine up with the Western Brigade at Andersburg in June 2008. I hope to see you there putting your money where your mouth is. If approved at the battalion meeting on November 3rd, that opportunity will be fleshed out in this thread.

A Carpe Eventum as the 1st Minnesota

When Jeff "Sparky" Henion whipped off his "Changing Destiny" medallion in the parking lot, and proceeded to water it mightily with the nearest hose at hand, that mighty trickle pretty much defined a never turn back moment. Shades of Patton freshening the Rhine at Remagen with a stream of his own, but I digress.

Come to think of it, similar opportunities are available at N/SA mainstream events, encampments and skirmishes about this great nation, and if you want to recruit a battalion and drill at the Battle of Bugtussle Flats & Tractor Pull, then go ahead. If folks don't want to go, then there isn't much you can do about getting them to sacrifice a weekend to attend. That's as blunt as it gets. I do remember when Goat Boy had "qualifying events" for the fabulous (for them) Guano Dot event, but let's hope we can avoid that sort of thing. Come to think of it, if people wanted to go to these events, you wouldn't be making a beggums for a return to the land of 'streamin'.

While I'm pointing out the obvious, I do have some quibbles with Doug Cooper's 2008 rendition of The Back to the Mainstream Movement.

Two Schools: As has been beaten to a lathery pulp on this forum many times, the opposing points of view tend to fall into two camps. The first camp believes in creating a firm foundation on solid footings before growing. That's a prudent notion, and one that has served us well for over a decade, even in a period of hobbywide declining participation. The other school of thought has been to fix the problem from the top down. We haven't heard from Don Quixote or Sancho Panza for a while, and the results have been mixed with the best efforts achieving only a slightly improved mainstream event. Polishing a turd is still polishing a turd even with a hot Simoniz wax job. It is what it is.

Kick the Great Organizers in the Nads: When I look back on the damn good battalion level events over the past few years, I wonder why a guy from Idaho wants to give them a swift kick in the nuts? I really do. Just a few years ago, people were crying the blues about having so many NPS living histories (isn't that our bread and butter?) on the EBUFU calendar. Speaking of the NPS and various other site restrictions, some sites only allow a finite number of participants. If the landowner says "no more than 50 people," then go with the flow. Funny thing is I have seen a heck of a lot of events come and go that had far greater capacity, but where was Doug Cooper? Yep, off at a 14 man picket post that's too elite to be posted on the AC Forum. Does that make you a hypocrite? Let the people decide.

Quality Events: About a dozen people organize the top end events. The list is small. For example, if Pat Landrum called me up to say he had an event consisting of a man swinging a dead chicken over his head in a burlap sack in four part harmony, I'd probably go, and have a fine time boiling up that dead bird, too. I'll wager it would be a damn good event, and certainly the weather would be something to talk about later. We had kewlest of the cool time at Fort Donelson last year, and warm camaraderie at Vicksburg a few months ago. Maybe you've heard about the balmy tropics of Winter 1864? Sorry you couldn't make it. I remember some great opportunities for drill at Camp Curtin, Shiloh NPS LH, Chatham Manor, Antietam (NPS LH 2003), 2nd Kernstown, Fort Granger, Athens, and some other outstanding events. Sorry you couldn't make those, either.

Buglers: If they'd blow as often at events as they do online, we'd really have something to talk about. (This in no way is a reflection on the tooters who have been supporting quality events for years without a mammoth dose of lip service.) Come to think of it, I owe the legendary George Rabbai a word of thanks for adding much to a recent NPS LH at Spangler's Spring. Thanks for tootin' at a fine weekend. Can you bring more of that weather? :)

Grand Guard: Funny, but I didn't see Doug when we had over 250 men on Grand Guard a while back. Oh, that isn't counting the opposing force. It really was grand. Where was Doug?

Fieldcraft: Why no mention of that? Is that because the order of the day for the hardkewls is to "go get a motel room and a hot meal" when it drizzles? When in Rome....

School of the Battalion: This doesn't "ALWAYS" happen at larger events. That is a myth that needs to be nipped in the bud in rapid fashion. In fact, a larger event is probably about the worst place of all to try to squeeze in a good battalion drill between the shoot-'em-ups, dances, and ladies' tea.

Ad Hoc Battalions: I don't know about the rest of the world, but that epoch ended in Summer 2000 here in the East. It was good to see the PL spring from the lineage of the FCB that had served us so well. I recall when our first choice for leadership gave us an uplifted middle digit, too. Do people still have to work to put battalions on the field? Yep. Been there, done that.

And yet intially it [BGR]was decried by a number of hardcores (mostly hardkewls) as unworthy because it would be too large, too long and would never work out anyway. Wrong.

Funny how we didn't see any of that on this forum. If you have hardkewl friends who feel that way, perhaps you need to find some new friends who aren't hardkewls. I remember Randy Houck had a good two-year marketing plan for week-long events, and the larger challenge is being able to get folks to line up a big block of vacation time, kitchen passes, etc.

Outpost is another outstanding chance to learn those skills, and we ought to be able to field at least 150 per side (less than 8% of the AC forum), if in fact we really care about being better soldiers and challenging ourselves.

Maybe you just need to use better numbers. As of October 12th, Outpost has captured an incredible 44.2% of the actual market, and not some whining and crying little 8% of a forum's membership. That glass is darn near half full. Speaking of breaking a sweat, just how much recruiting have you done for this event? Emails? Phone calls? Face to face? Forum posts? Artful graffiti spray painted on railroad freight cars? For some reason I'm seeing a lot more of Doug's return to the mainstream epistles than posts supporting quality events. Ever notice that? Is there some puppetry involved here. Some have suggested as much.

Let's talk about numbers. I agree "10-15 years ago it was no big deal to see battalions " (mostly not drilling by any known manual) and even brigades worthy of the name. You know what? Those 10-15 years have seen a mainstream that could once field over 25,000 participants at one event drop to a few thousand, to include a higher percentage of camp sitters in sweatpants on the company street and screaming children. To be kind, let us just say the FMA elements have declined by about 75% since reaching an apex of quantity in July 1998. On the other hand, this end of the hobby is poised to break 600 this year. With one event remaining, it's going to be darned close, but it could happen.

I continue to believe that our "end" of the hobby should field authentic battalions at one or two large events per year. Many of us already do.

Few do, but battalions have been formed at a number of EBUFU events each year. The people who actively support these events with their attendance know this to be true. For some reason, I get the impression this "Back to the Mainstream" movement is a real pack of lies, distortions, and feigned ignorance. For some reason it seems fashionable on the runways of SOYA events to crap on those who have busted their arses to offer some truly great events over the past few years. What's the motivation? Is it somehow linked to the same motivation some groups have for not wanting any mention of their event on the AC Forum? Growing the hobby through secret (or not so secret) events is somewhat amusing, but watching someone who belongs to one of those groups beg for larger events is down right hilarious.

Do we want to?

About every five or six years maybe it does us some good to go to a farbfest or mainstream event to recalibrate our meters. I remember this discussion when a well known Mid-Atlantic group used to regularly eschew the better events, because they had a bayonet demo at annual GAC event in Gettysburg, or a fun little romp at Funkstown, or just had to go to Canvasville or some other hoohah. The list of missed opportunities was incredible. Other than a few strays, that group exists only on paper these days, mostly due to the fact the members were not challenged by the events they chose to attend. Those were mostly mainstream events. They bought a lot of clothes, missed a lot of great events, and are now all but gone.

Bottom line is most of the CPH are tired of the never ending Us vs Them arguments from those who would piss on the work of so many people, and try to drag us back to the 'streamerfest pits of Hell from which we escaped. It's a free country, so if you want to continue the counter-revolution, here is a forum for just that sort of thing:



Frankly, I'd rather see Doug Cooper recruiting people for Tier 1 EBUFU events, but that pig won't sprout wings and fly anytime soon.

P.S. Craig, we use the term EBUFU. FUBU is a clothing company. The more you associate with the CPH wing of the hobby, the more you'll understand the acronyms. I hope to see you at an event someday.

[BrianHicks]

Re: The Back to the Mainstream Movement

Here's my take on Big events.

As far as giving folks an opportunity to learn Battalion drill?

That's great for the Officers (while the men are the training tools, bring drilled with rifle in hand while the officers often forget to give them commands to shift their rifles around). And who are the officers at these big events? Not too many of our end of the hobby.

As for thinking and commanding in combat situations? For the few big show events I've been to, there was limited opportunities for that, as the events were scripted to the historical scenario this limiting any opportunity for flexibility beyond the script.

As for me and the fellas I know best, after being left on the field skirmishing all morning, then ushered into a Corps formation without a chance for water, then denied the opportuity for water before the next battle, only to find out that our Bns water wagon was out of service since before sunrise (no-one informed our Officers of this) and then to have another big bug deny men in harms way water from his Bans wagon... well... that was enough for us.

And yes... that was at Corinth.

The events that we have participated in, and sponsored for those in our side of the hobby, have seemed to always draw a good number of folks, and always have had enough people to achieve the goals of the event.

For those that desire to participate in the Battalion and regimental on line drill opportunities, there are plenty of events out there. And I bet lots of folks from here go to those events. But for many of us, the events as seen promoted on these forums offers what most of us are looking for. if we wanted more, we could (and some so) go elsewhere.

[Parault]

Re: The Back to the Mainstream Movement

Talking about the "Big Bugs" at mainstream events,especially Corinth. I don't recall if you had this problem,however on our end we had one very large stack of firewood that was supposed to be " issued" to the troops. I think that the pile is still there. To my knowledge there wasn't one stick issued,don't know why. That will be the last time I do Corinth.

Don't you just love those " Big Bugs?"

[Parault]

Re: The Back to the Mainstream Movement

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