How do you motivate others or improve the hobby?

[Kevin O'Beirne]

Re: The Back to the Mainstream Movement

Doug,

it's a shame to see that you've apparently missed a number of great events with battalion drill, battalion maneuvers, and other stuff that you're seeking.

That said, the answer is NOT to get more "campaigners" to return to mainstream events. Let's not go over that well-trod ground yet again.

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Re: The Back to the Mainstream Movement

If we are judging the quality of an event by the firewood, maybe we're going to the wrong events. How about getting one of those corporals just standing around, get a detail of privates, and get/obtain/appropriate some firewood. Firewood issuing has never been on the high-priority end at the right events, along as there are trees and deadfall in the area.

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: The Back to the Mainstream Movement

Points made...this thread should probably be closed.

[SCTiger]

Re: The Back to the Mainstream Movement

I am opposed to any wholesale transfer of Ebufu events, traditions or leadership back to the mainstream arena. I mean arena in a figurative and literal sense. I have made more friends on this side of the hobby and there is actually less politics and infighting. It may not seem that way, but the mainstream has never settled with itself or developed a core philosophy. We have a goal of representing the ACW in the most accurate way possible.

That absence of purpose will not be filled by the dedicated people on this side of the hobby. I really believe that more of you would have left and abandoned CW history had it not been for the fine events and projects the AC and the faithful messes and LH units have provided. My theory, a quick return to the mainstream is guarantee that you will be disgusted and discouraged. You will leave the hobby out of frustration.

There is no barrier to attending Mainstream Events (ME), I look forward to attending events like BGR and Outpost because they are challenging. They aren't easy, ain't supposed to be. Easy ME events may attract more people but, they make a reenactor super lazy. Challenging Ebufu events, will make you reconsider carrying that extra ration in your knapsack, you will be forced to work with mess mates to live as they did. It's a sacrifice and that word is hardly ever seen on the other side.

Personally, I am glad to have events where kids and modern attired women aren't in the military camp. I don't miss having to contend with store bought generals or wacky out-of-place specialty impressions. I don't miss the generators, cars in camp, lack of military discipline etc. What is there to return to???

We have a slump in the hobby as a whole, it involves several factors but, we will have another opportunity to prove ourselves in the field in 2011-2015. Lets kep the traditions going and the events,, even if we have just a few. We can't get "blood from a turnip" as Charles said.

[Parault]

Re: The Back to the Mainstream Movement

I am sorry I didn't finish out ,I guess what was meant. I have been to events where there is " campaigning" experience. I love those. I like to do events where the owner will not have to clear underbursh for years. I guess I waivered off the subject.

My apologies

[PvtSchultz]

Re: The Back to the Mainstream Movement

The problem as I see it is not do we go back to mainstream events or not. The real problem with this hobby is a lot of people just do not know how to get along and that is turning people away from this hobby.

I have been to both large and small events, mainstream and "authentic" and frankly I could rip into people at each of those events for perceived wrongs. One of the first events I took my son to as a Federal participant included a rather larger "authentic/progressive core" attached to it. At that event it rained, in fact it rained all weekend long. Now wouldn't you know it, all those "authentic" types ran away and hid in their cars or under the event tent where the visitors could see them come morning. My son stuck it out and selpt with his old man in my shelter tent and never complained. I could tell you how I have seen people more "authentic" than I run around in their pristine campaigner kits and have little form or substance about them when it comes to drill or the movement of troops. I could also tell you how horrible some of the larger events with all the fast food items offered for sale and the five and dime store "Generals" that ran around all self important but that is not my point. There is good and bad at every event no matter mainstream or authentic.

This kind of negative tit for tat does this hobby no good. It is a turn off and I am getting to the point of being turned off permant. People get their britches in an uproar whenever someone disagrees with them. It is a pity we don't know how to communicate properly and by doing so be able to truly listen to what each of us has to say. The hobby would be better off for it.

My fondest event took place many years ago on the actual battlefield of Camden, N. C. This event was small but the best I have ever been to. Orginal fields along with trenches and a great local historical society that made it a point to do their research and walk each of the units around to show where and how the battle played out. Portraying the 6th New Hampshire Volunteers, my pards and I walked away from that weekend the better for having gone. But I am digressing again.

So with a smile on my face and joy in my heart I say unto you, Why can't we all just get along?

[Pennvolunteer]

Re: The Back to the Mainstream Movement

Now I'm not an old-timer in the hobby by any means, but I have to say that the hostility toward mainstream bothers me. As someone who strives for authenticity, I also am involved with mainstream because at least in Oklahoma, if you want to go to events, that is about it. More importantly, if you want to improve the hobby, I think you have to be around mainstream folks to teach them what is right. Most don't know any better, and I have found if you explain it to them, they are mostly open and receptive to being more authentic. I can't say how many times I get, "oh, I didn't know" and they aren't opposed to becoming better. It is a slow process, but I see this as a chance to educate folks, improve the hobby, and "bring folks over". They don't know what they don't know, and if we don't "go among them" we can't improve what goes on with mainstream. I get aggrivated, frustrated, and sometimes mad about things I see, but I am also very vocal about doing what is right and pushing for folks around me to get rid of the farb, do research and find out for themselves what is right.
I know that is what Cal Kinzer does. I see him at mainstream events all the time, teaching and setting a higher standard for authenticity, influencing the direction of the hobby for doing it right.
Keep up the standards, never let that go, and have campaign quality events without compromise, but I see some very hard line attitudes about mainstreamers in here, when I see them as recruits or converts waiting to see the light.

[Hank Trent]

Re: The Back to the Mainstream Movement

More importantly, if you want to improve the hobby, I think you have to be around mainstream folks to teach them what is right. Most don't know any better, and I have found if you explain it to them, they are mostly open and receptive to being more authentic.

This hasn't been my experience. Most reenactors seem to hit their comfort level pretty quickly and don't want to change, because they're doing what they enjoy.

Seems to me, if there's any interest in attending mainstream events, the questions are:

Are we attending mainstream events instead of cph events, or in addition to them? Not sure how flexible everyone's budget and time off is. If there's the least chance someone is being encouraged to attend a mainstream event instead of a cph one, I don't see any good in it.

And what are cph reenactors going to be doing at these mainstream events, besides the battle and drill? It's hard enough to keep a mainstream attitude from creeping into cph events, without the funnel cake stand and the beer cooler and the parking lot right there. A few events where the cph wing actually accepts farbing out after hours is going to make it even harder to keep things on track at events where that's supposedly not acceptable.

I see some very hard line attitudes about mainstreamers in here, when I see them as recruits or converts waiting to see the light.

The problem is, it can be like a pyramid scheme. A cph reenactor goes to mainstream events, and recruits mainstreamers to... what? Go to other mainstream events to recruit more mainstreamers? There has to be an end goal there, and in my opinion, the end goal is cph events, or at least, if you're really geographically isolated and can only get to a few cph events a year, trying to find others to do a carpe eventum at mainstream events where the goal is reenacting to the best of one's ability regardless what others do, rather than interacting as a promoter or recruiter. In the 1860s, no one spent their days encouraging others to be less farby.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Jerry Ross]

Re: The Back to the Mainstream Movement

Hello all,
I see points being made on both sides of this discussion.

The lower attendances to all events bothers me. The attendance has been going down since I started (I think it is my fault).

What I have not seen is the main streamers coming to one of our events in Company, Battalion and Brigade levels.I think we have gone to their events ,maybe when need to get Gen Moore,Gen Rambo (or others) to come to something we do.Maybe those of you who are on staff can talk to them to come over with us.

Just my two cents worth to maybe try something different

[coastaltrash]

Re: The Back to the Mainstream Movement

Not even worth the vacation time anymore. I have all the respect for guys like Fred Yokubatis (sp?) but going to an NSA event, as previously stated by myself on another thread like this, is simply out of the question. They do not offer anything I look for and the treatment at the last two was far from substandard. Glad some found a happy place there, best of luck with that.

Jerry I like your idea. But it will never, EVER, EVER happen. The last time I remember the WIG being on the same field with Rambo in tight quarters was at Chickamauga in 2003. He had nothing but negative and snide remarks to make about the battalion, which were not called for and not responded to, at least verbally.

[tsgalloway]

Re: The Back to the Mainstream Movement

Kick the Great Organizers in the Nads: When I look back on the damn good battalion level events over the past few years, I wonder why a guy from Idaho wants to give them a swift kick in the nuts?

Why does it matter where someone is from? Why all the personal insults in a public forum?

[Poor Private]

Re: The Back to the Mainstream Movement

Personally I see more crap being tossed back and forth on the 2 or 3 more popular forums (not to name any at all) than I see at events.
Since the internet is one of the more popular ways for non-reenactors to check out wether they want to even reenact the civil war or not . We do not present a very pleasent face to them with all our carping back and forth. I even have to monitor what I read on the forums any more because I am so sick of it. It gets to the point when a thread leans this way I tend to hit the back button and go read or discuss somewhere else. The name calling in both camps are getting to the point people don't even visit the forums in the numbers that used to because of the same ole crap being tossed about.
Both sides have their niches, and their faults, and good points. I have even resigned from a couple of forums because of it. This is not why I joined the forums. I joined the forums for the comradship, and the possibility that I may learn something, or to be able to pass along information that I may have gleaned from other sources.
When moderators from both sides even get into the act it really starts to bother me. according to the dictionary I have in front of me the definition of moderate is 1-avoiding extremes: also temparate 2- To lesson the intensity of 2: to act as a moderator.

[sharpshooter]

Re: The Back to the Mainstream Movement

I can respect that everyone has an opinion on this but the personal shots are plain out of line PERIOD. For those who don't know Doug, he is a damn fine reenactor, understands the hobby and is a good guy. I don't agree with everything he stated but let us argue the point not the person who is saying it. I get sick and tired of the anger showed here.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: The Back to the Mainstream Movement

P.S. Craig, we use the term EBUFU. FUBU is a clothing company. The more you associate with the CPH wing of the hobby, the more you'll understand the acronyms. I hope to see you at an event someday.
__________________
Charles Heath
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Well, this thread turned into a big pillow fight, who could have guessed?

Charles:
Do we have a titular head of the "C/P/H wing"? Since there isn't one, it is probably left to the individual to determine which mix of events best meet their objectives. I hear great things about the EFUBU EBUFU, and from people whose opinions I respect! Yours among them. There is no doubt I have been missing out on something good. Never say never but with a variety of activities competing for any available time, it all depends on priorities. I'll make a deal with you. Write and submit a monograph on "Rations" for the upcoming Wearing the Blue (mid-to-late 2009). Some survivors of your cooking say this is an area where you are probably non-pareil in terms of your knowledge and insight. Like all Watchdog publications, the proceeds go to battlefield preservation.

On that subject, who administers the EFUBU EBUFU Battlefield Preservation Fund? Presumably EFUBU EBUFU events raise more money for battlefield preservation than Mill Springs, right? If not, who cares what they call the events? Do they raise funds for battlefield preservation or not? I'll be supporting Cedar Creek next weekend for that reason. Last time I checked CCBF was near the top of the endangered battlefield list. In fact, I'll drive twelve hours to do so.

[TKlas]

Re: The Back to the Mainstream Movement

Wow,

This thread is a dicey one.

My only major concern with a thread like this is focus. Way too many times over the years people whom do not attend quality events argue the point we must support the mainstream. Now I have all the respect in the world for Doug, Charles, and Jim Butler whom have stated differences of opinion on this topic since they do attend quality events.

My worry by making such a big deal out of these type of events, most gents do not reach the goal of c/p/h event attendence like Hank stated so well. I remember having a discussion about the Recon's, To the Gates of Washington, select your NSA event, and even Mc Dowell as events that are fine for their purpose as more of a mainstream improvement event, but lets then see these people shaking the tree for these events at the well listed c/p/h schedule.

Personally if I do an adjunct, it will be locally where I do not waste that much fuel and might actually do something good by being in conversation with someone that wants to improve. It is hard to do that at the larger mega events where you loose that time to work with someone since your elbow deep in battle or other events. Having been with the AoP at Franklin and Corinth I know all about it.

Lets make the Tier One and Tier Two seletions our focus for 2008 and if a local adjunct make sense, by all means if your interested attend.