How do you motivate others or improve the hobby?

[flattop32355]

Re: The biggest roadblock to authenticity...

A. No one was mocking you. If my thread had resembles another discussion, its merely coincidental.
B. All mainstreamers are not farbs.
C. So what was the purpose of your post? Did you post on the right board?
D. It' a discussion, not an indictment.
Greg Deese

For clarity, point by point:

D: It is interesting that you took my response in the same fashion as you believed I took yours; as a possible attack. I assure you, I did not do so to yours, as I also did not aim mine at you, but simply became distressed at the tone which seemed to me to be progressing with successive posts. In fact, in making my response, I was trying carefully to avoid that very thing by couching my words in relatively polite terms (ie, "gently challenge"). Apparently, I failed in the effort. Had I felt any hardness towards a given poster, the proper place to discuss would be in a private message, off the board. I merely wished to aim the discussion from my own side of the heap, that of a more mainstream reenactor.
C: Yup, right spot. See also D.
B: I agree, but that was not the "feel" I was getting from the posts above mine. A possible misinterpretation on my part, but again, one I sometimes sense here and on other forums.
A: Again, merely part of the discussion to somewhat forcefully state my belief that I, nor many mainstreamers, is inferior to any other reenactor, even if some aspect of my present impression has not progressed down the road as far as some others.

There is a great difference between the "farb" we all smile and shake our heads at with the polyester uniform and portable refridgerator in his wall tent, and that great swarming mass of plain, old booger-head mainstream folk. Robert E. Lee may have been a great general and worthy of praise, but he was nothing without that mass of boys at the bottom of the heap. We're ALL important to this hobby, mainstream and p/h/c alike, and generally pointed in the same direction.

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: The biggest roadblock to authenticity...

I think we are all Farbs. There are those of us that stagnate and decide were they are is comfortable or good enough, and those of us that try to do the best with what we know and push the hobby forward.

[JohnnyReb42k]

Re: The biggest roadblock to authenticity...

I think the biggest road block is money. At least that is what is holding me back. I am a college student, and that takes away most of my funding. We all strive to be as authentic as we can be. And the most authentic stuff is very expensive. Some of us don't have $350 to spend on a ************ knapsack. Some may say we could save up and get that. Maybe once you have everything you need, then you can upgrade to the top of the line stuff (ie-************). Until then, get the most authentic kit for your money.

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: The biggest roadblock to authenticity...

Joshua

I was in your shoes once and I can tell you, just because it is expensive, does not mean it is the best you can get. Make connections do carefull research and do the best you can with what you can. It may mean that you have to limit yourself to one impression. I did only western Federal for years due to finances. Whatever you do do it the best you can.

[SCTiger]

Re: The biggest roadblock to authenticity...

For clarity, point by point:

D We're ALL important to this hobby, mainstream and p/h/c alike, and generally pointed in the same direction.

Complacency and a unwillingness to improve. That is the true roadblock(reenactors or progressives/authentics alike.) -Ryan Weddle

Bernard: I must disagree by using Ryan's excellent quote. I would love to believe that every reenactor wanted to improve, however; from my own field observation, there is a vast majority of reenactors who just don't give a hoot.
It's more than equipment or uniforms, it's a mindset. I would like to pruchase a $500 handsewn overcoat, but I have limitations as does everyone, but I still want one, so I am waiting for that used $200 coat (fat chance) or I may order a kit and make one (not likely), so we all have limitations, but we all have a desire to improve. The definition of a farb is "unwillingness to improve", bingo. I might add cooperation as well.

You can also drop the illusion that every reenactor is going to gather like the tribes of Israel and will immediately adopt the "Creed of the Living Historian" or the "Campaigners Manifesto" as their guiding light. Not in my lifetime.
Everyone isn't valuable to the hobby, I am sorry to report, some of them actually do more damage, misrepresent history and are recalcitrant about it.

[SCTiger]

Re: Getting Restarted

Thanks Ike:

Looks like your off on the right foot, good to have a legacy man such as your self back in the field. Look folks somebody actually reentered the hobby the right way, there is hope after all! See you in the field Ike!

Greg Deese

[srmitchell]

Re: The biggest roadblock to authenticity...

I think the biggest road block is money. At least that is what is holding me back. I am a college student, and that takes away most of my funding. We all strive to be as authentic as we can be. And the most authentic stuff is very expensive. Some of us don't have $350 to spend on a ************ knapsack. Some may say we could save up and get that. Maybe once you have everything you need, then you can upgrade to the top of the line stuff (ie-************). Until then, get the most authentic kit for your money.

Yes, money is part of it,
but once again it's not that simple. You can hand any guy off the street the right gear. That won't make him correct. It's in how you wear it, your knowledge of the era (which we're all still learning), and how you carry yourself. I have to agree with Ryan. It's in the attitude. I'm glad to see so many that are striving for authenticity. (myself included) But no, all of us are not. All of us never will be.

From Flattop32355:
"Again, merely part of the discussion to somewhat forcefully state my belief that I, nor many mainstreamers, is inferior to any other reenactor, even if some aspect of my present impression has not progressed down the road as far as some others."
Sir,
So long as you are progressing, then I agree it may all be different shades of the same eventual color. However, I hold that many mainstreamers are not in any state of progression. This gets tricky because you are inferring to others eventual intentions, and I can only reply by generalization of what I can see. In this case, both of us can discuss till we're blue in the face and never achieve anything for want of solid evidence.
My question is this, and please sir I mean no offense to you or anyone on the board. If you break down the word re-enact. It means basically to re-do something that once was. Your are attempting to recreate a historical occurence. So if Joe Blow 're-enactor' is sitting in front of a wall tent, with his wife and kids fussing about while he cooks on his cast iron camp equipments, then what exactly is he re-enacting??? Even if Joe and Bob have a wedge or "A" tent with two men in it on cots, what are they re-living? What historical occurence are they re-creating?
I understand that not everyone can do campaign. I understand that some people will not leave the wife and kids, and some people want a wall tent.
Does this make them inferior as human beings? No. But are thier impressions and representation of the life of a civil war soldier inferior to the impressions of those men who have done the research, suffered on the march, slept in the cold and rain, and done everything possible to bring an accurate picture of this era to the public?
Yes sir, I believe they are.
Joe and Bob are great guys, and they have thier hobby. Quite a few of us started out there with them, and still keep in touch with them as friends.
However, if what they do is correct or on an equal par with historical evidence, then there would have never been a reason for anyone to have progressed at all. This very forum would not exist.
Any attempt to compare the two hobbies as one in the same, is a farce. One attempts through research and documentation to closely replicate all aspects (that can be with any accuracy) of the civil war years and the citizens that found themselves both in, and trapped between, the armies that fought it.
What are Joe and Bob really doing?
Respectfully,

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: The biggest roadblock to authenticity...

Additude trumps money problems every time. Here is a photo of the AOP on the 1st Red River campaign in 1994. Every guy in this photo is wearing a uniform from what today would be considered a substandard vendor.

[Skeet]

Re: The biggest roadblock to authenticity...

Pards, I don't know about you fellas, that is the same reaction I get at an event even critquing a mainstreamer. I will never tread lightly on this subject! Here is my defintion of a farb, a person who knows their impression is wrong and doesn't care! Dan Morgan 10th Va (IVR)

[SCTiger]

Re: The biggest roadblock to authenticity...

Robert And Stephen:

Thanks for the reponses. Robert that's a great picture and really proves the point.

Under the "links" butttons and the Articles, one will find articles on "Progreesing on a Budget" by Jim Butler and Paul's article "For the begining reenactor, Before you buy a thing!" No really expects anyone to buy the top of the line stuff first

Actually things got cheaper for me on the campaign side. I didn't have to buy a 4x4 pickup and a trailer just to bring my gear into camp. No coolers, stoves, tents, bagpipes, cots, 40 pounds of iron cookware, ammunition boxes to hide everything in etc. I find it amusing that some folks will scoff at spending $190 on a good jacket will spend $300 on a bad reproduction wall tent. Nor do I have to spend 2 hours disassembling everything after the event.

Now I park the car, slide on my knapsack and accouterments, grab the rifle and hat and I am there.

Good question: How much would it cost today to accurately outfit a infantryman with a basic issue, sans overcoat and shelter-half? With defarbed weapon $1900? Paul quoted $1500 in 1999. I know some guys that spend that much on a set of premium golf clubs, more than that on a hunting rifle or a bass boat. How much to get started in paint ball?

How much plasma or pizza's deliveries would a disaffected college student have to sell to attain this :)? (hey I have been there). Actually a paint ball tournament between the various AC forum folks would be a real fun event.

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: The biggest roadblock to authenticity...

Good question: How much would it cost today to accurately outfit a infantryman with a basic issue, sans overcoat and shelter-half. With defarbed weapon, $1900? Paul quoted $1500 in 1999. I know some guys that spend that much on a set of premium golf clubs, more than that on a hunting rifle or a bass boat. How much to get started in paint ball?

I really dont think we spend any more than any other hobby. If you are into golf, fishing, cars ect, you are going to spend at least $2000.

I have always thought that you can put a farb in all original gear, and he would still look like a farb. If you will take any one with the right mindset and put them in moderate kit, he will still look like he walked out of a period image.

[Hank Trent]

Re: The biggest roadblock to authenticity...

It's been my experience that most people will encourage and support improvement in accuracy up to a certain point. When a newbie who's below that point approaches them, the illusion is that they're boundlessly enthusiastic about historical accuracy and doing it as right as possible or practical. That's my favorite part of being with other reenactors.

But once you hope to see improvement beyond their comfort level, all the support ends.

Doesn't matter what the level is, whether it's a farbfest or EBUFU event, if you cross that line, out come the same old excuses and in many cases outright hostility--it's what we enjoy, we've always done it that way, it doesn't bother *me* so why should it bother you?, if we didn't allow it our friends wouldn't come, that's just nitpicking, etc.

I've run across the exact same phenomenon among volunteer reenactors, museum living history people, and even non-reenactors who recreate historic environments, like botanists, historic reconstruction people, etc. Let me tell you about the botanist with the PhD who first bragged about the importance of accuracy to me because I was just a newbie to historic gardening, then began to attack me when I said it was inaccurate to grow a tomato variety developed in 1867 in an 1863 garden--did you know that "poetic license" allows a 10-year fudge period?

It seems every level of every group has a consensus of what's important for accuracy, and what's supposed to be overlooked, and you suggest improving the things that are supposed to be overlooked at your own risk. And I'm not talking about controversial research, I'm talking about fixable things that everyone who's involved acknowledges are less accurate than the alternative.

It's discouraging, but the only solution I've found is to walk away and find other more supportive people to be with.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[flattop32355]

Re: The biggest roadblock to authenticity...

Ahhhh...so much to say, so little time! :)

Attitude is more important than money (implication being that less-"perfect" kit on an involved reenactor is better than the most "accurate" kit on someone who doesn't care to work towards improvements in impression)...I would agree; then let's stop bellyaching and putting so much emphasis about gear, to the point where people are ridiculed if it ain't the high-priced spread. Pretty darn good is still pretty darn good.

Note that I make a strong distinction between farb and mainstream (my original point). Those that want to play at soldier and those that want to reimpress those soldiers' lives are two different animals. My belief is that mainstream wants to do a reasonable job of it. The other doesn't care. Don't confuse the two or lump them together.

Authentic vs accurate: T'ain't a one of us authentic. Can't be done. Accurate is another matter, and even there, we fail, unless we want to dodge real bullets, get real wounds, dysentery, lice, excrete into a slit trench, be away from your family for months/years at a time, etc. And you surely will have to march on foot to get to the reenactment of your choice; no driving. We can become reasonably accurate, but that's about as good as it gets. Haven't met a man yet that can't improve there, either.

The fella that may not seem to be improving today may yet improve tomorrow. My guess is that no one here shot a straight and steady path to the point they've attained; lots of jumps and starts.

IMHO, a p/h/c who spends most of his effort talking down to others, of ANY stage of accuracy, or infighting with other p/h/c's, is at least as distructive to the hobby as any farb born. The farb can be ignored; the jerk can't. Again, the importance of attitude...

It ain't two hobbies: mainstream and p/h/c. It's just two facings of the same sphere. And I respectfully submit it all has value. People who see either can learn something from both.

I don't support having coleman stoves and coolers in camp, nor any other sore-thumb items or activities. I also don't support the idea that if my roller buckle is 1/16 inch too wide, I'm a hopeless, unredeemable farb and should quit the hobby.

People who don't care are as troublesome as those who only care too much about the wrong things. I submit that many mainstreamers do not fall into the former, and that some p/h/c fall into the latter.

And, again, my point: Farb is not mainstream, and mainstream is not farb.

[SCTiger]

Re: The biggest roadblock to authenticity...

Again, without rehashing the entire thread. No one indicated that mainstreamers were farbs. I am not going to wrestle in a verbal tar pit with you on this.

A bad attitude (anywhere) was established as a the biggest roadblock to authenticity. We defined what that was.

Money is a problem for some, but isn't necessarily the greatest obstacle. There are ways to go authentic on a budget.

I would rather drag less gear around then more.

What money you do have is better spent on first rate equipment, but that alone won't buy you "authenticity."

Any mainstreamer that desires to improve their impression, no matter if they attend mainstream or EBUFU events, isn't a farb.

I believe that my thread has been generous and fair, it has also served its intended purpose.

Your reply consisted mostly of nonsense. Farbs and people with rotten attitudes do exist and I don't have to make a plaster cast, a 16mm movie or a scientific study to prove it. They may exist in both realms, but they are real.

So quit personalizing this discussion and get back on board. Otherwise Auf Weidersehn!

[HOG.EYE.MAN]

Re: The biggest roadblock to authenticity...

And, again, my point: Farb is not mainstream, and mainstream is not farb.

I don't know about that.... The're both pretty farby to me!

I always thought if you're wearing sutler row uniforms, screwing up drill and attending cheesy circus atmosphere events, then you're a farb...

I know people will say: But Hog-eye, farbs are the guys who wear modern eyeglasses and wristwatches to events. Yeah, so, of course that's farby. But so is wearing a sack coat from "Fall Creek Sutler."

I don't care if you're sleeping under the stars, eating salt pork, and doing first person. If you don't have the correct uniform/gear then you're a farb or pretty darn close. Anybody can have the correct mindset or attitude. Having a great mindset or attitude plays a very big role don't get me wrong. But, if you don't have that "look" then nothing else really matters.

BTW, this post is not directed towards anyone on this forum.... Please don't take it the wrong way. This is the way I was taught and I'm just expressing my feelings as a hardcore living historian on a AUTHENTIC CW website.