How do you motivate others or improve the hobby?

[P. M. Cunningham, Tinner]

Re: Engish Messtins

I would in no way refer to what I have seen as an "exhaustive search", I have simply come across three originals, by accident, in going through museum collections for the last twenty years. All had almost identical characteristics which is what my knowledge is based on. The repro pictured below is based on the Kentucky Military Museum's artifact (bail and ears are not attached). The second is a detail of the reproduction cast iron ears I have seen.

The photos that Robert posted of WW1 tins seems to correlate with what Rob posted about rounded corners. Once again, the photo angle is bad but I would guess that the ears in Robert's photos are cast.

Were the tins only manufactured with cast ears and did the rounded corner style coexist with the sharp corner style in the mid 19th C.? Beats me. I am currently planning on documenting out another three artifacts this summer, if all goes well. Still won't be exhaustive though.

Hopefully your manufacturer can shed some light on what he based your product on. It could be CW origin, but I am leaning towards a later date without more information.

Patrick Cunningham

[SCTiger]

Re: Engish Messtins

Patrick:

After receiving a few emails about this and viewing your pictures, I will have to concur with your opinion. I believe the earlier messtins were as you described and "D" shaped with the sharp corners. The later models have been mistaken for Civil War items or like other reenactor myths surrounding British Empire gear. Glad that you are clearing the air of confusion on this. Good eye for detail. I would still like to see as many pictures on this as possible. Good work

[Silas]

Engish Mess tins

I just want to know if an exhaustive search has been done, before I dump the item.. If it's a latter day EMT, then I can selll the tin to some WWI reenactor NP.

English mess tins are like the Holy Grail for me. I'm dying for one, but have stayed away from them. It's an item I want, but don't need. (I also want to replace the '77 Vette I crashed twenty years ago, but I certainly don't need to.) I've wanted one of those mess tins since I read about them in the old 3d Mississippi manual. Great write up in there.

It's fun to think if I just purchase this last item, my kit will be complete. If I did buy one, I'd never use the darned thing and wonder why I wanted it so much.

[SCTiger]

Re: Engish Messtins

Silas:

Someone mentioned to me over the campfire that only three Union units (New York and CT I think) used the EMT, however; it was commonly imported, especailly with the Enfield Rifle Infantry sets and the I & C backpacks. I have seen only one in the field this year and of course my poor imitation. I wonder if they are often dug up in camps or how PEC they are. They are very handy and I bet the vets probably held on to their kits after the war. Just theorizing.

[2MDF&D]

Re: Engish Messtins

I would in no way refer to what I have seen as an "exhaustive search", I have simply come across three originals, by accident, in going through museum collections for the last twenty years. All had almost identical characteristics which is what my knowledge is based on. The repro pictured below is based on the Kentucky Military Museum's artifact (bail and ears are not attached). The second is a detail of the reproduction cast iron ears I have seen.

The photos that Robert posted of WW1 tins seems to correlate with what Rob posted about rounded corners. Once again, the photo angle is bad but I would guess that the ears in Robert's photos are cast.

Were the tins only manufactured with cast ears and did the rounded corner style coexist with the sharp corner style in the mid 19th C.? Beats me. I am currently planning on documenting out another three artifacts this summer, if all goes well. Still won't be exhaustive though.

Hopefully your manufacturer can shed some light on what he based your product on. It could be CW origin, but I am leaning towards a later date without more information.

Patrick Cunningham

Pat,
Your first photo is what I'm talking about as CW period with the sharper sides (corners). Thanks for sharing your findings.
Rob McFarland
2MD F&D's

[James the Haggard Ranger]

Re: Engish Messtins

I hope this info may shed a little light on the D-shaped (kidney) English mess tin. I have been studing world events during the 1850's and 1860's to see what correlation they may have had to our Civil War. Of course no matter what part of the world I look at England seems to have some influence. English military equipment shows up everywhere not only in Union or Confederate service.

The Crimean War of 1854-1856 serves as a show case for some of the English gear which shows up in Confederate and sometimes Federal service. There are some photos from the Crimean War with soldiers wearing or using their Kidney mess tins. Unfortunately there is some differences between size and shape among them. Some are rounded although not as much as the World War 1 ones and many look like the few surviving Civil War examples. One good book about the English equipment of this period is Book 107 of the Men-At-Arms Series "British Infanrty Equipments 1808-1908" by Mike Chappell.

The D-shaped or Kidney messtin was first issued in 1814 on the Spanish Peninsular and has been credited to being designed by the Duke of Wellington based on a captured French mess kit. Of course, I have my doubts about Wellington designing the messtin. Therefore the versatilly of this messtin is shown by the fact it was used from 1814 to 1939.

Because the messtins were made by probably more than one manufacturer, like a lot of Civil War gear you will find some variations. There was a lot of unused Crimean War gear which the British government sold at reduced rates to English companies like Issac and Campbell's which was later resold to the South at a higher price. The English companies also contracted for new gear based on the designs of the standard English Army Traps. Complicated isn't it.

On a side note a lot of English Traps show up in China in Imperial service during the Taiping Rebellion of 1851 to 1866. The English and American merchants and traders (Opium Trade) in Shanghai used English weapons and gear when they formed the Shanghai Volunteer Corps to defend the Western settlement there from Taiping, Imperial, and other rebellious Chinese. As an example in 1860 Ward's Force aka the Ever Victorious Army was equipped directly by the British Army. As you can see those messtins got around.

The casualties for the Taiping rebellion were on the low end estimated between 20 to 30 million. The last major battle of this war as the fall of Nanking on June 19, 1864 with estimated casulaties of over 100,000 dead. June 19, 1864 was the same day the Confederate Army of Tennessee occupied the Kennesaw Mountain line.

I don't know if this helps or not but I figured a little more info could not hurt.

Thanks,

James Wooten, Interpretive Ranger

[Kate Vogel]

What is your attitude towards first person?

First person: it can be the most enjoyable or most wretched experience at an event. We've all heard horror stories of people randomly asking others at a late war event "So, soldier, what did you do before the war?" and plenty of us have been privy to stories of nearly flawless immersion in everything mid 19th century. Before and after a recent event, I heard many interesting views on first person or the lack thereof during events. What is your philosophy on interpreting history in a first person fashion, and what part of the United States do you hail from (East or West)?

[MissAnnaMae]

Re: What is your attitude towards first person?

A thought-provoking poll, Miss Katie. It will be interesting to see the results.

[billwatson]

Re: What is your attitude towards first person?

A really fine idea for a poll.

Of course not every event needs to have the same approach to first person. Sometimes steak is good; other times chicken is nice. And sometimes you get steak and chicken at the same event. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? :-)

[ElizabethClark]

Re: What is your attitude towards first person?

Oooh... I don't think I can vote in the poll... I'm a steak AND chicken person. LOL

It's really got to be event-specific for me... sometimes I'm there to be in "demo mode" for educational reasons, and other times I'm there for ME to get to experience it... and sometimes that can be on different days of the same event.

I'm definitely Western... Idaho Rockies.

[Kate Vogel]

Re: What is your attitude towards first person?

Sorry guys, only one choice. I figured that if I made it possible for more than one answer things would get more skewed than they will already be as it's a voluntary response sort of deal. Steak or chicken, steak or chicken... ;)

[justthemiller]

My take on 1st Person.

Dear Kate (& Others),

I've been to a lot of events over the years and I have always had a rule about doing 1st person and that is don't do it in a parking lot! Well, perhaps that's an oversimplification but allow me to eloborate. 1st person, if done correctly and in the right context is a wonderful educational tool yet many fall short of doing it right. Why? because many are not mindful of the background in which they perform 1st person interp. When I speak of background I am talking about the background of the time and socio-economic factors of the person one is portraying and the physical background in which one is standing! For example, I recently attended a living history at a National Battlefield Park in which, during the day, my partners and I did a lot of third person interp. We were stationed near a small parking lot, the public was in and out and we felt that doing more third person educational interp was in order considering the physical background we were in. However, in the evening, it changed. The reason being we were participating in and evening tour and many of us were stationed about the park, doing 1st person type interp. It worked out a lot better there because for one, we were given guidelines as to what we were doing along with a loose script that we could easily memorize and follow. And two, the physical background was such that the public would concentrate on what we were doing and talking about. It was dark, we were set up in a low spot of ground and he had minimal lighting placed there.
Now, I have been to events in which folks will try their hardest to do 1st person and, given the right setting, they may have pulled it off. However, they were foiled (at least in the public's eyes) by such numerous distractions as modern traffic whizzing by and non-period buildings or other distractions being right behind the person. Also, I have been witness to folks in beautiful, period settings fail miserably at 1st person due to the simple fact that the folks just didn't study the subjects period background and other socio-economic factors. If one is portraying a private in a regiment of dirt farmers then that person should sound and act like it! Do not come off (to the public's eyes) like a Harvard-educated lawyer.
So in conclusion, please be mindful of the "backgrounds" one is in before considering doing 1st person type interp. It will pay dividends in the long run. Take care.

[RyanBWeddle]

Re: My take on 1st/3rd Person.

I wholeheartedly agree with Dr. Miller's post.

Private immersive events are one thing, where you can droll on about "what did you do before the war" until the cows come home. As said here, when done properly immersive living histories with first person can be a very neat thing. When done properly. But you have to have a good knowledge of what you are talking about, many times "just not talking modern" doesn't cut it. You've got to really understand how to do it, and alot (too much actually) has been written on how to "firper" on the internet, etc...

Now, doing first person during a publicly attended living history program is a totally different ball of wax.

There is nothing worse at a public demo than bad firper (i.e., manequins in a field as dead bodies, bad medical demos w/ fake blood, and just bad bad theatrical crude "got any coffee for this 'backy Yank?, etc. etc.) :cry_smile

Many times in the living history programs we attend where the public/NPS has a large role in the days activities, many times first person can be lost on the public and isn't the best way to educate. During company drills/firing demos for the park many times whilst the company will drill remaing in "firper" while doing so, one designated member of the group will act as a liason with the public giving a presentation to the public and answering questions in 3rd person.

Now true that isn't a steadfast rule. Many times professional historic sites and homes will use a mix of first person and third person in educating the public. At Colonial Williamsburg (in years past at least) when a tour would enter a room/bldg the interpreter would begin there display/talk to the public for a few minutes in first person and upon commencement would switch to third-person to answer questions, etc.

At 1830s-50s, Connor Prairie, Indiana (again in years past) - they stayed in 1st person all the time and depending on the interpreter it can be hard for the public to understand meanings if that interpreter stays "in character" all the time. If that is too be done, you need to know how to answer questions and be mindful of your audience and how to convey to them in a modern sense what you're doing/saying in a 19th Century persona. And that isn't always easy. It takes smarts.

Many of these institutions train their interpretive staff on how to properly handle interaction with the public and usage of "period speak".

All of this must be kept in mind. And as Dr. Miller says, it also depends on your surroundings and judgement as to what the public can understand/absorb when trying to convey ideas/messages in 1st/3rd person.

[Hank Trent]

Re: My take on 1st/3rd Person.

Now, doing first person during a publicly attended living history program is a totally different ball of wax.

I've always felt there are two entirely different things, both going by the name of first person:

"First person interpretation," and, well, there's no really handy term for the other, maybe "accurate behavior."

First person interpretation is like a theatrical costume, whose purpose is to give the proper illusion to the audience as they watch the play.

Accurate behavior is like a reproduction garment, whose purpose is to look and function as much like real period clothing as possible, whether anyone else notices or not.

Since interpretation is a way to communicate about history to the public, accurately reproducing 19th century behavior isn't the priority. By definition, whether it's done in first person or third person, you have to intrigue the audience to get their attention, you have to communicate in an understandable way, you have to make the topic reasonably relevant to a modern person's frame of reference, etc. So there's a reason to over-emphasize things, over-simplify things, or otherwise edge normal human behavior beyond the point of realism, in order to accomplish one's goals in those ten minutes that you have to capture your strolling audience before they move on to the next thing.

And I don't mean the hokey fakey-sounding stuff--first person interpretation can be done in a way that gives the illusion of real behavior. But the fact remains that people in the 1860s didn't "interpret" to each other, anymore than we try to intrigue an audience and interpret current events as we shop at Walmart or order at McDonald's.

At 1830s-50s, Connor Prairie, Indiana (again in years past) - they stayed in 1st person all the time and depending on the interpreter it can be hard for the public to understand meanings if that interpreter stays "in character" all the time. If that is to be done, you need to know how to answer questions and be mindful of your audience and how to convey to them in a modern sense what you're doing/saying in a 19th Century persona.

Exactly. When I worked at Conner Prairie, I had fun interacting with the public, got high evaluations from my supervisors for keeping them happy and interested, etc., but there was something missing, from my point of view. And it was the fact that you always did have to keep in mind that you were merely using the illusion of 19th century behavior to convey modern ideas to a modern audience. It was a product and you were there to provide it to modern customers.

"Accurate behavior" is something else entirely, and it can best be done when everyone knows ahead of time that it's what they're walking into, typically at an immersion event, or at least during non-interpretative portions of an event where the public is sometimes present. You don't have to "put on a show," draw attention to yourself, or engage anyone in conversation if you don't want to. You don't have to be simple or clear or obvious, get any particular points across, or even talk at all. If something was private, or unclear, or apparently illogical in the 1860s, it's the same way. Like real life, when you're trying to behave accurately as an 1860s person, there's a lot more room for subtlety and nuances that would seem pointless if the major goal is interpretation rather than realism.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: What is your attitude towards first person?

Hallo Kameraden und Kameradenerin!

Sorry, I did not see any buttons that I can push in the survey choices... :-)

Well said, Herr Hank! (I use "persona" for "Accurate Behavior...")

There is immersion/emulation and then there is acting/simulation.

But also, I believe the best efforts at "first person impression" is when there is "persona," and particularly when EVERYONE has and holds the same expectation(s) that the function/event/happening is more of a Time Warp than a Reenactment (not that bits and pieces canot be injected and interjected anywhere at anytime...)

On the other hand, I am reminded of NPS "living history" functions at G-burg where it seemed most everyone "forgot" it was "LH" and seemed to sit around showing off and discussing their latest clothing and gear acquisitions while only a handful of the participants, in persona/first person: boiled a shirt for lice, tore off loose heelplates and used them for an impromptu horseshow game with bayonets to throw on, and some German fussing in German to the pay officers as to whether the pay amount was figured correctly as he had a wife and daughter back home.

And, elsewhere, I am also reminded of being asked by a comrade with whom I had been serving and messing (no pun) for the past two years: "Where I was from? and What I did for a living before the War? and was I married? (All forced, contrived, and "unnatural" for a messmate and chum..)

But, I can lapse into jaded cynicism quickly... ;-)
With the "wrong lads" at the "wrong events," using or even trying "persona/accurate behavior" can sometimes be like swimming UP Niagara Falls (and I have the rock bruises and scars to prove it). :-)
So, I do no longer go to "those events," and try to do things where- like clothing and gear- there are "expectations." ;-)

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt