How do you motivate others or improve the hobby?

[Jersey Devil]

Re: What is your attitude towards first person?

First Person is for rookies. Senks and myself have perfected the art of Third Person at events. Try it some time.

[SCTiger]

Re: What is your attitude towards first person?

Katie :

In my limited experience with first person, I have discovered one important personal requirement. I have to recreate a man that actaully existed. Trying to cobble together a mythical composite person, like "John Williams" doesn't work in a spiritual vein for me. I like representing the actual soldier that existed in the 1800's, if I could pick one guy and represent him all the time I would, but the units and events change so we have to be flexible. When the 1st SC Regulars were at the Fort Moultrie in April, it was easy for me to choose my GGG Grandad Amos Leander Mcmanus, who was there exactly 140 years ago in the 1st SC and was probably on guard duty at the same places I stood sentry, I had lots of information on him. Representing a soldier in a different unit or a Union unit is much harder for me.

If I am able to secure a name of an actual soldier, I would do some research on him before the event. Although someone appeared on a 1861 muster roll, it's no guarantee that they made it to the first battle, deserted, died of disease, was captured etc. I have to know more. Was he a farmer? Youngest of the family or the oldest? Where did he live, what is that place like? Does he appear on the 1860 census? You can gather much information from the census and military records. Parole papers from Union prisons often give a physical description and home of record. Church records, deed and land offices, period newspapers will aid in your the quest to represent the character. If your lucky, someone wrote some detailed letters home or a recollection for the local newspaper.


Some characters are over-represented (not that word), we have far too many Sam Watkins, Berry Benson and Busrod Carter types in the field, not to mention the celebrity impersonators like Lee, Jackson, Grant, Lincoln etc. So much has been wrote about them, that I see no challenge in representing their life. One only has to look similar to them in physical appearence.

The best living historians in my book, can find an obscure character from the war, do some good field work and produce an interesting untold story as a result. Some lesser known soldiers did produce interesting recollections and out-of-print memoirs. You may have to check out the historical society and state or local archive to find them.

Also I can't reenact as me any more. Greg Deese didn't exist in 1861. So it's hard to play Pvt. Greg Deese of the 5th Georgia, no such guy ever existed. I quit introducing myself this way. It's farby from the begining, no matter how good my "impression" is. What me? in the 19th Century. I would start my impression by "inventing" the automatic rifle and air conditioning. So I can't impersonate a 19th Century guy if I don't leave me the 20th/21st Century guy behind and my modern knowledge.

If we had a short social before the "go" time of each event, where everyone could snap a few photos, meet, swap lies and catch up on the gear/shop talk, before the event, it would help with eliminating some of the problems keeping things authentic in the field. You could also discuss the character(s) you are representing, prior to event start

I feel that a good first person impression of an actual person enhances events and living history programs. It's also a good chance to tell a untold story.

[billwatson]

Re: What is your attitude towards first person?

Curt put his finger on something I kind of unconsciously grasped early on: If you just are whoever you are and do whatever it is you'd be doing if that's who you were, things generally work out without a lot of affectation of the type that really kind of sets my teeth on edge, the forced declaiming of facts that would be obvious to guys who'd already spent lots of time together at whatever point in the war you want to "be."

It's like editing an essay. When somebody writes "It goes without saying" that this or that is the case, then that's exactly what should happen, we should go without belaboring the obvious and saying it.

[Staunton Rebel]

Re: What is your attitude towards first person?

I have to agree with Greg, I can't be myself out there in the field. I'm lucky in that I portray a man who lived in the same county I reside in now and comparing our lives growning up were not too different (both of us were farm boys), so there are something about farming that are timeless ie...getting up before dawn, hand milking cows, splitting wood, bring in hay, and so on. I try to focus on that aspect of William Abneys life and modify my experiences to the 19th century. One thing I try to do when doing first person is to fly under the radar so to speak. Any good private would do it, those who bring attention to themselves end up getting more work to do. I learned that farming too! :wink_smil I stay away from discussing politics because I'm illiterate as a first person, but I know how to skin a coon. I try to make a point of knowing things about my pards first persons too. It's helpful for me when I do speak to know a little about the rest of my group. I get annoyed when people try too hard to impress people with the wealth of knowledge they possess. It reminds me of an event I was at a few months ago that had a huge hole in the middle of the field. The tour of spectators ame through and all I heard was Baccy this and "We'll gett'm them damn'd Yanks!" I guess it's true that less is more. My two cents.

Waverly Adcock
5th Va Inf. co E

[billwatson]

Re: What is your attitude towards first person?

Am I the only one who notices that -- gasp --easterners and westerners are just about equal in number in every category? Not that I'm trying to connect any dots or anything...

[Kate Vogel]

Re: What is your attitude towards first person?

"easterners and westerners are just about equal in number in every category?"

Nope. It's not a scientific poll by any means, but the results are definitely interesting.

[Girty]

Re: What is your attitude towards first person?

In my opinion really good first person takes a lot of preplanning on the part of all who are involved. I have been to many events in the past where there are a handful of individuals who have put 110% into their first person impression, but the effect fails to meet it's mark when no one knows anything about anyone else (or the background of the unit for that matter). As mess mates and even members of the same compnay you would already know about the other members of your unit before you enlisted. That is the nature of the units we portray, companies and sometimes entire regiments were formed from local communities. You would have had interactions with many of the other men (and their families) before enlisting, not to mention you would have memories of the same events from your particular region. To take this further, if had served with the unit anytime at all you would have heard many of the stories and known about the lives of the guys you interact with on a daily basis (This is the way it is in my modern unit. After being overseas for several months, we found it hard to tell a story that had not been heard before.) To take this even further there would be stories from previous days in the army that would be told over and over to "josh" your friends or remember fallen camrades. These would be collective memories, not just held by a few.

I worked at Lincoln Log Cabin State Historic Site in Illinois where (in the past) they had a very strong first person program. In the training, interpretors were provided with information about the community and families that lived in the area. One could even get a hold of the particulars of every family being portrayed if they were so inclined. This made the first person very good at this site. I made it point to know where families lived and who their children were. Visitors to the site would comment that it acually seemed like we lived in that little community and knew our neighbors just like we had lived their all our lives. Our first person was also aided by the fact that we spent five days a week together (and many of us would go to events together when they would let us all off work at once!)

Basically what I am trying to say is that first person inside a military unit is hard to pull off and takes much preperation by all involved. It can be very exciting and rewarding if you know a lot about everyone elses first person characters. They way I have explained it in the past to non-living history persons is that you know you are a 21st century person you can not get away from that. However, if everyone around you is taking part in great first person you feel like you have traveled in time. I extend the same consideration to other members of the group by sticking tightly to first person and thus presenting them with the same feeling I have.

I agree with others who have stated in their posts that first person may not be the best way to educate individuals about a period. To persons who are extreamely uneducated about the period the effect of first person is novelty, but they may not feel comfortable to ask questions, or it may not be possible to answer some questions in first person. For example, if someone were to ask how a Federal soldier's equipment and lifestyle compared to that of a Confederate soldier it would be hard to answer in first person. It is a good asumption that one would not know the particulars of the enemy. This question is better handled in Third person where one can talk of comparisons and actually quote and refer to primary documents and resources. First person is also hard for our modern visitors/spectators to handle if they have not be properly briefed about what they are about to encounter. This is definately a problem at events. Spectators have no idea who is doing first person and who is not. On one hand you have mainstreamers wondering about doing what mainstreamers do and then in the far recesses of an event you find progressives that engage in first person. That difference is hard for most spectators to handle.

In the end, I think first person is great and really adds to an emersion event. It is hard to do and maintain under the best of circumstances. Third person is in my opion the best to use for educational perposes, though a skilled interpretor/living historian can use both at once by swithching from first to third after a conversation to clear up any questions the visitors/spectators might have. If you do not already use first person from time to time, I suggest you try it. Be sure to do your research and build first person impressions that are authentic, it is as important as the uniform you wear and equipment you carry. At times various units I have been involved in have had every one create a first person impression and write down the particulars. Then a master copy can be complied and distributed helping you to get to know your "friends".

Girty

[Staunton Rebel]

Re: What is your attitude towards first person?

Eastern or Western...I think the poll says that which is important...we all feel that it's important to be educated in first person, but not over-do it to the point of sounding rediculous. It's hard enough being a regular person in such a cataclysmic event like the Civil War. Coping with the extreme depervation and yet retaining your humanity makes first person hard, so why make it a farse by acting like a buffon. Act natural!
:shades_sm

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: What is your attitude towards first person?

Hallo Kameraden und Kameraderinen!

"First person should be spontaneous, but an extremely detailed background should be created for my character and I should be entirely aware of the (equally) detailed backgrounds of those who I will be interacting with on a regular basis (i.e. family members)"

To further the discussion...

IMHO, we are largely pointing a finger at the moon and mistaking the finger for the bright thing in the night sky. :-)

A quality historical "impression" is composed of three major things:

1. The "visual" or "physical" and "mental" impact of historically correct clothing and gear.

2. The "visual" or "physical" and "mental" impact of the mid 19th century man/woman in terms of his/her physical presence (appearance and condition), but also the "mental factor" (being the combination of up-bringing, education or lack of education, religion, ethics, politics, socio-economic class, health, and all of one's Life Experiences good and bad) that come out in body language, patterns and sound of speech, mannerisms and "quirks," and everything else that makes us a "person."

3. The everyday culture and "life style" that No. 1 and No. 2 when combined with events, happenings, and activities as expressed in simulations, emulations, vignettes, or "slices of 19th century life" experiences.

It is a form of progression, learning, growth, evolution, and application that starts small and builds over the years (if one is willing to embrace the concepts). It also builds faster when in the company of like-minded men and women.
It is done for BOTH ourselves and our pards and pardettes in that the more of the three we "do," employ, and develop and build on as part of our CW persona- the more of a Believable Image (BI) we present to ourselves, our comrades, and at times the public- and the more we can "Suspend Disbelief" (SD) that it is not 2004 but rather 1861-8165.

No, one needs not necessarily be "entirely aware" of every detail of one's own persona (it starts out as a skeleton and gets fleshed out over time), let alone those around them.
The "start" is to not try to "force" it with inane questions, unrealistic or inappropriate questions, and "theatrics" to comrades one would have known intimately for years. Just keep the modern talk OUT, and inject period talk when one feels comfortable and confident, and when the timing feels right to add to the comment, conversation, or even discussion at hand. (WE do that NOW, they did that THEN!)
As in Billing's account of messes, I often portray the loaner who does not talk much or that does not join in- the 1,000 yard stare man.
Sometimes, the easiest and best "first person" lies in not opening one's mouth at all...

I (you, the next person) can engage (me, the next person) you in realistic "first person" without ever having even met you before, let alone
my knowing anything about your persona or impression:

Sample No. 1: "Hmmmmm. Think we'll be a-moving out t'day?" (Versus, "Who did you vote for on "American Idol" last night?")

Sample No. 2.: "I heard the 7th got fresh beef for their supper? (Versus, "Who won the Mets game?")

Sample No. 3.: "I got this here shirt from a Yank's pack, and it's crawlin' with lice! (Versus: "Who makes the best haversack?"

Sample No. 4: "Kin y'all read this hyar letter frum my wife? I cain't read an' would be beholdin'. (Versus: "When did you get that de-farbed Enfield?"

Sample No. 5: "Can anyone spare a button for my trousers?" (Versus: "Who is better, Daley or ************?)

Sample No. 6 "Anyone have any paper?" (Versus: "You wearing drawers?")

Sample No. 7: "I think I got a tick crawlin' on the back of my head. Can ya have a looksee? (Versus: "You goin' to Cedar Mountain?")

Sample No. 8: "Where'd they put the sinks?" (Versus: "Where's Sutler Joe's set up?")

Sample No. 9: "Anyone wanna trade some hardtacks for some flour?" (Versus: "Do you think they really could clone dinosaur DNA?)

Sample No. 10: "It ain't Rocket Surgery." (Who's that Heinrich think he is, and why does he say those horrible things?")

Etc., etc.

Well, may be not No. 10... :-)

The more one knows (by experimenting, doing, learning, doing, learning, etc.) the more one is able to combine No. 1, 2, and 3 to have a "BI" and "SD" for him/herself as well as one's comrades, and at times, the public.

IMHO, much of the fear, apprehension, loathing, and avoidance of No. 2 and No. 3 is nothing more than F/M lore and stereotype of H/A types- used as "Boogermen" by many unit commanders and status quo supporters to keep people "in line" and from not growing up, out, and away.
And a goodly portion of the rest is that it is new and different to the Newcomer, and change can sometimes be fearful and hard...
It is not as hard as it seems to some, or is made out to be by others.
Granted, man/mind, material culture, and activity is not for everyone- but that is why our hobby is so diverse and the F/M/C/P/H/A Model so broad.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt
Boogerman
Time Warp/Time Machine Model Mess

[theknapsack]

English Messtin pictures

Okay, as I promised, I got pictures of that mess tin and measurements. The tin is NOT identified to anyone specifically, but it is from the eastern theater. It was bought from Bannermans in the 1960's. It only has one insert, and that one has a fold in wire bail. I thought it was japanned but it was not, I couldn't remember correctly. I hadn't seen it in a while, in reality it doesn't look much like Mr. Deese's
The lid is 19 1/4 in. (49 cm) in circumference, and 4 1/2 in. (11 1/2 cm) across the top. The mess tin when lid is on is 4 1/2 in. (11 1/2 cm) The bottom is 18 1/2 in. in circumference (47 cm) and 4 1/4 in. (11 cm) across. The pan on the inside is 18 in. (45 7/10 cm) round and it is 4 in. (10 1/5 cm), and its depth is 2 in. (5 1/10 cm). The Lid looks like it was used as a plate (it has knife scratches on it, and has a depth of 6/8 in. (1 9/10 cm). The depth of the mess tin it's self is 4 1/8 in. (10 1/2 cm). Now here comes the kind of strange part. The ears are cast, but are kind of large. They are 1 2/8 in. (3 1/5 cm) up and down, and they are 1 in. (2 1/2 cm) across at the bottom and at the top they are 3/4 in. (2 cm) across. Both ears are attached by two iron rivets. The handle on the insert has a tin piece to hold it in which is riveted once and is soldered. It is much like what Mr. Cunningham said about interior sloppy construction, etc. Hope this helps! My friend let me borrow it so if there are any pictures or measurements you want, reply here or send me an e-mail.
thexknapsack@yahoo.com

[P. M. Cunningham, Tinner]

Re: Engish Messtins

Thanks for the photos Riley.

Actually the cup/insert piece looks to be better defined from a drafting system then what I have seen in the past. The ears are definitely the unique aspect though. They look to be heavy sheet stock iron that is stamped, not cast, from the photo, but I'll trust your definition. Any chance of a head-on shot of the ear? (Just my computer acting up or is the first photo attachment a blurred mess for all?) The interesting thing about the ear is that the bail hole runs parallel to the body and not perpendicular. If you look at my repro ears, and the photos that Robert attached of WWI styles, the ears stick out perpendicular to the body. Not sure if we are viewing alternate construction/design system here or an earlier/later generation? My notes are buried in my truck right now so I can't do a full analysis of the measurements yet.

Patrick Cunningham

[Daryl Black]

Re: Engish Messtins

Fellows,

There is a mess tin that belonged to a solider in the 26th Tennessee at the Chattanooga Regional History Museum. I accessioned it about 12 years ago. The solider's name is faintly scratched into the back of the tin. Might still be on display. Worth contacting them about if you are looking for sure-enough Confederate used examples. Lon has my original photographs.

Daryl Black

[theknapsack]

Re: Engish Messtins

Mr. Cunningham, here are the pictures of the ears. Bad observation on my point, they are stamped. For your viewing pleasure:


[Edit: I added a picture of the thick lip for you. RE]

[LindaTrent]

Re: What is your attitude towards first person?

My thoughts on first person are pretty much explained in the articles on "Creating Believable and Sustainable Characters" at the following site:

http://struggleforstatehood.homestead.com/SandBC.html

Basically "First person should be spontaneous, but an extremely detailed background should be created for my character and I should be entirely aware of the (equally) detailed backgrounds of those who I will be interacting with on a regular basis (i.e. family members)" Obviously one would know more about members of their own family, or peer group, church group, mess, etc., and less about people that they wouldn't interact with as much on a day to day basis. True, good first person, is not "stagey or fakey."

Linda Trent
lindatrent@zoomnet.net

[Cavscout]

Re: What is your attitude towards first person?

Howdy folks,
I am new to this forum, however, I have been reenacting for over 20 years. As for 'first person" it is easy for me as I have taken the personna of my great great grandfather, so the stories are second nature for me. I feel for all y'all that have to brew it from scratch, I salute you.

Mike Rodriguez