How do you motivate others or improve the hobby?

[CJDaley]

Re: Overweight?

if you are at an event like the LBL and have to fall out of the ranks because you simply can't manage the marching, it doesn't matter how much you weigh, just stick to LH events.

Zactly. I've been on marches where the 16 year old skinny kid had to fall out, but the 74 (that's right seventy-four) year old private and the 300+ pound sergeant fniished the march.


I'd be pretty bummed out if a guy 4 1/2 times my age out marched me...

...of course at this point in my life that guy would have to be 162 years old!:cry_smile

[Citizen_Soldier]

Re: Overweight?

Greetings,
A few years ago myself and a research partner did some extensive research on Anthropometrics and presented at a national museum conference and had a portion of our research published in a museum journal.

The main bulk of our research was examining thousands and thousands of random samples of WW1 enlistment forms for the Iowa National Guard and then doing a fair bit of work to draw conclusions from the data. Our findings were that the typical male during the early part of the 20th century from Iowa exhibited a 36" chest. There was only an extremely small fraction of men who were around a 42" chest or bigger. When we compared this to other research done in the Anthropometric field we found that the average chest size of 36" in the male American population of European decent was standard from the Revolutionary War through WW2. It's not until after the second world war when chest sizes start to increase in large numbers, there's a few reasons for that some of which include a more sedentary lifestyle,the use of corn syrup and other sweetners, and fast food. The chest numbers have gone up from about a 36" chest to about a 41 -44" chest in about 60 years.

Now concerning the civil war there was a study done I believe in 1863 of a sample of soldiers in the Army of the Potomac, numbering around 2,000 or so and it was found that the typical chest size was that of a 36" chest. Looking at other sources I would feel quite comfortable with these numbers.

Additionally we found a very very small difference in height though the last 200 years or so, when historic populations were compared to modern populations in the US.

Darrek Orwig

[KyCavMajor]

Re: Overweight? yep

I am 6 foot tall and go 270 or so. And I am 48 years young, but I don't recall slowing anyone down.
I continue to diet, but my constant traveling on Business makes it tough to keep weight off. And for reversing the aging process... well I m open to suggestions lol.
I "ain't the man I used to be", but I have always wore a size 50 or so jacket to fit my shoulders.
I take comfort in the fact there was a least one Cavalryman my size, Confederte General Serro Gordo Williams was a big guy, Will Dyer in his book says he ws over 300 pounds. And I think Heros von Borcke was a big guy too.
As long s I can still do with out tents or an air matress, I will keep doing this. When I cn't get off and fight on foot, I will quit.
Till then, I will diet as best I can, and keep my place in the ranks... Perhaps I can inspire younger more fit troopers, if the old fat guy can sleep on the ground, why can't you?

[Milliron]

Re: Overweight?

Ah yes, the endless "isn't being overweight farby?" discussion. In a word, yes. However, we've seen how difficult it is to get right. History, good medicine and bounty work against you.

Look at Si Klegg and His Pard, regarded by many as the be all and end all of a description of a Western Federal. Si starts out heavy enough that his uniform barely fits him--in 1862 or so. So why should you be any different, considering you are really no more of a Civil War soldier than Si is when he joins. True, Si probably isn't as heavy as some of us, but heavy he is--and he lives on a farm. Granted, this story is fiction, but if you regard it as attempting to portray "everyman," (as it was regarded at the time), it's a pretty good reference.

The other note I make is that the relative age of many reenactors is older. I discovered to my dismay that as you age, you gain weight even without eating more simply due to your metabolism slowing down. So you turn around, and boom you're a pants size bigger. I struggle with it to this day and despair of my impression because of it (YMCA here I come).

While I think that morbid obesity is really a bad thing to see in the field, I know a number of very knowledgeable people who fit that build. It's a weakness of the hobby, and not one that will be remedied anytime soon. Young bucks, come back when you're forty and we'll have a comparison of your belt size then. Until then, run down to Wide Awake Films and get in the video while you still look good.

[styler]

Re: Overweight?

While Patrick's question has been asked and asked again and in many different forms (size, age, eye color...), I don't think it's wrong to bring it up periodically. The question keeps us honest about ourselves and our goals.

There's no perfect answer to the question. As with the saying "youth is wasted on the young," the folks with the time, money, knowledge and dedication for the Civil War era are usually past the skinny eighteen-year-old stage but still full of youthful enthusiasm. Considering what the physical requirements of the authentic side can be like, we should all be aware of our fitness, and as Kevin tries to keep reminding us, to be an authenticist the three M's should have equal weight in our research and portrayals. But, in the end, to borrow Mike Murley's old phrase, it comes down to keeping as many buggers as you can keep off the windshield and knowing which you can live with - and recognizing buggers as buggers.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Overweight?

Hallo!

"In my eyes, as long as there are guys honoring our ancestors, that's what is most important."

IMHO, while I appreciate the thought and the sentiment behind it, I do not think most folks right of "C" center on the so-called F/M/C/P/H/A Paradigm actually believe that that is "most important."

Otherwise, when everything is possible, nothing is probable.
Meaning, I may consider "honoring" (an "action verb" that needs to be looked at for how we "operationalize" it and put it into practice.)
For example, I can "remember" the service and sacrifice of my ancestors through family geneaology, battlefield and relic Preservation efforts, I can clean, maintian and lay flowers and wreathes on soldiers' graves, study the history of the Civil War and the common solider, etc., etc., but go to the local Halloween Costume shop or local Stage and Theatre Supply company to rent a "Confederate General" costume for a few bucks.

The rhetorical question, IMHO, would be is that "honoring" "most important" when it comes to reenacting or better yet "living history?"

Again not a criticism or negative, just a passing observation that IMHO the Man, Methods, and Material Culture ("3M's") are "most important" for a "high quality" Civil War Living Historian individual and group impression. And that folks can "honor ancestors" in many many ways that have nothing to do with impressions. personae, kit, and reenacting/campaigning/living history/EBUFU, etc., activities.

I did not look to see if the SEARCH feature is still intact when it came to previous discussions and stats on Civil War height and weight, and uniform sizes/cut percentages... etc., etc.

Others' mileage may vary...

Curt

[Dale Beasley]

Re: Overweight?

Well if they check to see if I have correct underwear on, then why not check to make sure I am of accurate weight?

My apologies, this post was in no way meant to insult anyone. It was merely an observation.

In my eyes, as long as there are guys honoring our ancestors, that's what is most important.

Good come-back, but the Passive-Aggressive shot has been fired. While I was in Iraq and Kuwait, believe it or not this very perception came up over and over. You have to realize that most soldiers will loose between 12 and 20 pounds while either "On Campaign" or "In-Country". Weight is a virtue of youth, where it is work with us older guys.

I weigh 187, 45 years old, 5' 9" (lost one inch in 26 years, 13 years in the Infantry had something to do with it), max my PT Test for my age, but I am 3 pounds over-weight as per the ARMY. SO, I am taped and I am 17% body fat, which makes me fit for duty and in darn good shape. BTW, after my tour in Iraq and Kuwait, my hair is gray, and I am proud of it.

BRING IT HOME PREACHER.....OK

You may look at a guy over 35 and think "he is to old and overweight to really have a good impression." I look at the younger guys and say to myself, " how many would still be marching next to me after three miles?"

During the 2003 WIG Port Gibson Death March, it was not the middle age overweight guys who were dropping out, but the young ones who just did not have the endurance. If I were not going to be on Active Duty, I would love to be at the Banks Retreat...nothing like "first person" after marching the first four miles of a road march.

I really don't believe many are in this hobby to honor our ancestors, I took my Grandfather who was with the 1ST ID on D-Day to a WWII Living History once, he just laughed and wanted me to go get him a Coke and Peanuts.

Many people in this hobby bring many things to the table. How lucky we are.

[JoaquinNegras]

Re: Overweight?

I am new to this AC place, so being a fresh fish, I don’t know much about things, but being just out of the real Army, I know that soldier now days are neither overweight or old. Well, if you count officers and NCO’s there are some old fellows, but I would think if we are acting like real soldiers back in the Civil War, and are going to spend money on gear and such to look right, we should also watch our weight. I know fellows can’t do nothing about their age, but they can about their weight whether they are young or old. Well, just thought I’d make my first post somewhere and hope I didn’t offend anyone or break any rules or make people feel bad about being overweight.

[DougCooper]

Re: Overweight?

During the 2003 WIG Port Gibson Death March, it was not the middle age overweight guys who were dropping out, but the young ones who just did not have the endurance. If I were not going to be on Active Duty, I would love to be at the Banks Retreat...nothing like "first person" after marching the first four miles of a road march.



This had been my observation as well - for every overweight or older man on a long march that gives out, 2-3 teenagers have trouble. While that may say much about the current sad state of fitness in the young, it also tends to point at the avg man that likes to do the more strenuous end of the hobby - we tend to be "experienced." Some younger kids assume it will be easy and do not prepare. The older guys have been there and know how it goes.

Actually, it is really the ultimate mid-life crisis. If I know I can complete an event like Banks' Grand Retreat with no problem, then I must really be young. ;) Oh, and this mid-life crisis is way less expensive than sports cars and 20 something blondes...

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Overweight?

Hallo!

Welcome, Joaquin!

Curt

[Dale Beasley]

Re: Overweight?

Actually, it is really the ultimate mid-life crisis. If I know I can complete an event like Banks' Grand Retreat with no problem, then I must really be young. ;) Oh, and this mid-life crisis is way less expensive than sports cars and 20 something blondes... [/QUOTE]

Amen, Brother!

[HOG.EYE.MAN]

Re: Overweight?

Some younger kids assume it will be easy and do not prepare. The older guys have been there and know how it goes.

Just because you're skinny doesn't mean you're in shape. I learned that lesson the hard way at The 1998 Raymond event. I was a young college student, who drank beer, ate fast foods, and lived a exercise free life. During the event, it all caught up with me. At the time, I was an experienced authentic, but didn't prepare for "tough" events. I ended up falling out with heat problems and it ruined my entire weekend there.

Now that I'm older, I know some of these hardcore events can kick your butt. I prepare as much as I can before I go, or else I don't go. Not only does event preparation keep you thinner, it helps with the tough events we all know are out there.

[Dale Beasley]

Re: Overweight?

"I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"--Bob Dylan

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Overweight?

Hallo!

The years keep rolling by me, they rock me gently.
I am younger than I was once, and old than I'll be.
But that's not unusual, for after changes upon changes,
We are more or less the same,
After changes, we are moreorless the same...

Last verse of "The Boxer" by Paul Simon

Here's one view:

From Fox’s Regimental Losses

The muster-rolls are provided with a column in which is entered the age of each recruit. From the figures in this column it appears that the mean age of all the soldiers was 25 years. When classed by ages, the largest class is that of 18 years, from which the classes decrease regularly to that of 45 years, beyond which age no enlistment was received. Of 1,012,273 recorded ages taken from the rolls, there were 133,475 at 18 years; 90,215 at 19 years, and so on. The number at 25 years of age was 46,626; and, at 44 years,
16,070.

The muster-rolls also state the nativities of the men; from which it appears that, in round numbers, out of 2,000,000 men, three-fourths were native Americans. Of the 500,000 soldiers of foreign birth, Germany furnished 175,000; Ireland, 150,000; England, 50,000; British America, 50,000; other countries, 75,000.

The average height of the American soldiers, as shown by the records of the recruiting officers, was 5 feet 8 1/4 inches. The men from Maine, Indiana, Iowa, Missouri and Kentucky, were slightly above this figure. The West Virginians averaged 5 feet 9 inches in height. The general average would have been greater had it not included the measurements of recruits from 17 to 20 years of age, who evidently had not attained their full stature when their measurement was recorded. Out of about 1,000,000 recorded heights of soldiers there were 3,613 who were over 6 feet 3 inches, and among them were some who were over 7 feet.(+)By selecting from the whole Army, there could have been formed regiments and brigades of tall men which would have surpassed the famous giant-guards of Frederick the Great.

But tall men proved to be poor material for a long, toilsome campaign. When, after a hard, forced march, the captain looked over his company at nightfall to see how many men he had with him, the "ponies" who trudged along at the tail of the company were generally all there; it was the head end of the company that was thinned out.

The records of the weights of the soldiers are incomplete; but, such as they are, they indicate that the average weight was 143 1/2 pounds.

The descriptive lists show also the color of hair, from which it appears that 13 per cent. of the soldiers had black hair; 25 per cent. had dark hair; 30 per cent., brown hair; 24 per cent., light; 4 per cent., sandy; 3 per cent., red; and 1 per cent., gray hair.
Also, that as to color of their eyes, 45 per cent. were blue; 24 per cent. were gray; 13 per cent. were hazel; 10 per cent were dark; and 8 per cent were black.
Also, that in complexion, 60 per cent. were light; 33 per cent. were dark; and 7 per cent. were medium.
From statements as to occupation, it appears that 48 per cent. were farmers; 24 per cent. were mechanics; 16 per cent. were laborers; 5 per cent. were in commercial pursuits; 3 per cent. were professional men; 4 per cent. were of miscellaneous vocations.

(Of course, such things as lying about one's age to be "over 18" or "under 45," or exceptions, etc, etc. so noted...)

Curt
Still of the 3% Red Hair and Not Yet 1% Gray Hair Mess

[Dale Beasley]

Re: Overweight?

Curt,

You inspire me...

In a soldier's stance, I aimed my hand
At the mongrel dogs who teach
Fearing not that I'd become my enemy
In the instant that I preach
My pathway led by confusion boats
Mutiny from stern to bow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now. --Bob Dylan