How do you motivate others or improve the hobby?

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Re: How's my Widget?

Very thought provoking post, John. The reason that I sew today is from Scenario
#1, with a little of #2 thrown in. For a couple of years of floating through mainstream consciousness, I wanted a decent shelter half, but I was not happy with the available options at events. As I started to see the other options that were much better researched, I found that I couldn't afford them at the time. I then sought out the available originals to look at, and finding them thin or under private ownership, I made the trek up to Atlanta to the History Center to look first-hand at an original . I made what turned out to be a pretty crappy copy since my sewing skills were limited, but over time as luck would have it, Mr. Gaede would come out with his book on the lowly Shelter half, with much better pictures and descriptions, and many more options for time period. I have since been able to greatly improve my sewing, my ability to access originals or at least decent pics, and can use the available reference materials, and come up with a passable widget for early, mid, or late war. I have tried to take that approach to everything I've made since, be it garments or accoutrements, and I've been the better for it, and I think the hobby/lifestyle in general has benefited.

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: How's my Widget?

I don't know if we'll ever recapture the days of folks heading to museums and digging through archives to see for themselves before they make or purchase items.

I hear what you're saying (I think)... However, I don't know that we want a lot of guys pawing through originals every time they want to make a purchase. It is time consuming and terribly inefficient if 2000 of us have to continually re-invent the same wheel every time we go to make a purchase.

Furthermore, I think that, if you look at the situiations I put forth, it can be really tough to evaluate a given reproduction, even if you have a lot of knowledge, unless you have the darn thing in your hands. We lack a basic set of common terms for evaluating a reproduction so even the recommendation of a trusted friend falls back to subjective terms, opinions, etc.

At the end of the day, looking at reproductions in comparison to originals is a never-ending process. There are always new items being reproduced, new knowledge being added, and originals that are not available for view to 99.9% of us. Many reproductions aren't even intended to replicate a particular relic, but are an amalgum of characteristics from an extant relic and/or photographs or period accounts/descriptions. Most of us end up making an educated guess or following the advice of a trusted comrade for a good portion of our purchases. After gaining an advanced degree in the reenacting "School of Hard Knocks", one's bullshit detector becomes finely honed. However, many folks prefer to focus on studying unit histories, geneology, event organization, etc., and don't have time to follow-up on the latest news in the "Gear Whore Gazette". As a hobbyist, I value what these non-gear-whores bring to the table and I don't see value in them getting left in the cold when it comes to their physical impression. How do we bring them along? If one of these guys has a 15-year old knapsack that has finally worn out or want a good pair of boots for a civilian impression, is it necessary for them "roll the dice" on a vendor?

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: How's my Widget?

Hallo!

"I don't know if we'll ever recapture the days of folks heading to museums and digging through archives to see for themselves before they make or purchase items."

I don't think we will, sigh.

On the other hand, is it a Different World?

Meaning, Times change (some times for the Better, sometimes for the Worse). The Daze of having to go beating teh bushes to public and private collectors and collections to view, examine, measure, and photograph clothing and gear to be able to go back and try to locate materials and then figure out to replicate and sew or construct oneself.... passed in Time to to friends and acquaintances who made a first class Widget for themselves. Then there friends saw it and wanted one. Then a friend of friend. Then a fellow unit or mess member. And before long, or before burn-out, there was a word-of-mouth cottage industry mkaing a low production number of Widgets.

Now... it would seem... there is the WWW and "premier" makers and vendors with web sites and "click and ye shall receive" mail order that we trust to have done the Homework for wrapped up in the price of their "commercial' Widget.

And some daze, bad days at that I confess, I have to wonder if it is now not in some ways actually better. Meaning, aside what was lost on the Journey getting to the best Widget, is it not perhaps a better thing that more lads can skip the detailed minutae of Widget history and produciton, and go directly to buying them "on line" or at the better events- thus in theory, putting the best kitted and outfitted troops into the field ASAP??

With a wink and nod that actual Civil War soldiers knew little or nothing about what pattern, form, style, model, arsenal or depot, etc., etc., they wore and used- just matters of quality, how long it lasted, and how often they could expect to receive another serviceable item to replace what wore out.
IF "premier" makers/vendors serve as the arsenal/ depot why should we "care?"

(Not fully agreeing with the notion, just throwing it out....as Devil's Advocate...)

Always looking to improve my Widget, my knowledge of Widgets, and how Widgets looked and were actually used in what ways..

Curt
Heretic Mess
Proud but scarred veteran of the Good Old Daze Rifles

[Texyank]

Re: How's my Widget?

And some daze, bad days at that I confess, I have to wonder if it is now not in some ways actually better. Meaning, aside what was lost on the Journey getting to the best Widget, is it not perhaps a better thing that more lads can skip the detailed minutae of Widget history and produciton, and go directly to buying them "on line" or at the better events- thus in theory, putting the best kitted and outfitted troops into the field ASAP??

With a wink and nod that actual Civil War soldiers knew little or nothing about what pattern, form, style, model, arsenal or depot, etc., etc., they wore and used- just matters of quality, how long it lasted, and how often they could expect to receive another serviceable item to replace what wore out.
IF "premier" makers/vendors serve as the arsenal/ depot why should we "care?"

Kurt et alia,

Why can't it be both?

I am very new to this wing of the hobby but not to reenacting in general. I would have come sooner but never knew that this end of the pool existed.

Oh, I heard vague references to things called mudsills but never knew who they were or what they were about. I must admit that I damn my ignorance because, though my kit sucked I always sneered at the wall tents and "ammo box coolers" in the wall tents of my fellow privates. I would much rather have preferred that the journey not have taken as long as it did.

God, I am glad to be here now. Back to my point.

I, for one, think it is excellent that I can go to "J. C. Weekly" and purchase authentic reproductions though for many of the items I don't know what aspects beyond hand sewn buttonholes make them authentic. True this is not ideal but it is also not the end of the story, at least not for me. The mere purchase of the authentic gear is not the zenith of the journey.

While I don't know the details and provenance of each item of my kit, I am steadily adding to the depth of my knowledge. So, much like purchasing on credit, I am "paying" for my more authentic kit on an installment plan.

While I know neither all of the questions, answers, or even each location to seek the answers, I am constantly on the hunt for new knowledge.

[pipthelimey]

Re: How's my Widget?

I have a secondary question in line with the original question. If some AC-approved "Widget- Maker" makes a widget, but fudges the details, will someone who knows better cry foul, or will we simply let it slide as "not my problem," or "let those poor suckers do the research I have?"

To me, that is one of the biggest pluses of this forum. No one of us knows everything, (and there are many, like me, who know very little) but together we form a massive collective of research and knowledge. If we can help keep each other informed, and keep vendors, (the better ones anyway) honest, then we'll all benefit.

AJ

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Re: How's my Widget?

Andrew, that is happening more and more, with alot of help with forums like this but more so with individual discussions and chatting it up with the pards. Even the AC has clamped down on an approved vendor or two, just doing it privately or semi-privately. I think now with the proliferation of better and better vendors, coupled with more open and shared knowledge, even vendors with good reputations for years will be suspect if fudging on the details. The clicques in this hobby run too close to not help out their comrades. That said, there are of course still some "big names" out there who may cut some corners, but as mentioned earlier, our choices are getting more and more as of late.

[Kace]

Re: How's my Widget?

For scenario one:
First off if it was one of the AC approved vendors, I very might well take the risk and purchase one on the assumption it was done right. Otherwise, I would contact the vendor and find out where they did their research. Also, I would try to get to know them....do they seem to share my value in doing it right. Finally no matter who was selling the widget, it never hurts to ask about a return policy if in person it does not meet my standards. Even a restocking fee is better than having to eat the whole price if it turns to be a bummer widget.

Kace

[Material Culture]

Re: How's my Widget?

What if I know my Widget is incorrect... Take a gum blanket that is stamped Goodyear Patent Vulcanization process but was not produced using the dangerous chemicals. Do you seek out a vendor that uses the "authentic Process"? the same goes for Knapsacks that might be flammable.
Your thoughts?
I would like to be able to say the only difference between My Canteen and the original is that the Original was made over One Hundred Years ago.

Sam Hayle
Tinsmith Mess

[ley74]

Re: How's my Widget?

While I get into trouble when I do this, here goes.

One of my passions is ACV relics. Now I have studied my subject well and am very comfortable in my field. Even so, when a large purchase comes up, I often ask my dealer friend to buy the item and pay a premium, just to be sure. Most recently this involved a Tredegar bayonet.

How does this tie in? Life has allowed me to inspect a number of wonderful items from museums and private collections. In several instances, I created sketchbooks of the items. The reproduction clothes and arms are purchased from vendors that I personally know do their homework to faithfully reproduce an item.

This may come as a shock to most of you but, a number of us have upgraded our kits from first coming to the dark side. Once you have a garment in your hand and can compare it to an original, the cycle of sell and re-buy starts again. Accurate Campaigner vendors are known to produce fantasy items that may or may not approximate any original item. Most, however, work their butts off to get things right. After some trial and error, you settle in to those you can depend on. Secenario 1 works, to an extent.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: How's my Widget?

Hallo!

Herr Sam!

Some lads use a Psychological Standard which is a form of a Sliding Scale of Imperfection.

Meaning, it is a "psychological standard" that exists in one's head as a chosen level of "authenticity" when to the unaided human eye (meaning without a microscope, chemical testing, or metalurgical testing') the item to the naked eye CANNOT be seen or perceived as different and can only be appreciated in the mind.

We see this done in the form of say rifle-musket barrels that are modern hard barrel steel and not period soft steel/iron, or we use aniline dye to replicate the look of actual indigo blue dyeing, or we use black acrylic dye to dye cartridge boxes instead of iron acid, or so-called "hot-dipped" tinware for period "pickle process," etc., etc.

Some things are a mtater of personal Mental Pictures. Some things are a matter of personal or group/unit/mess standards. Some things are a matter of economics. Some things are prohibitively just not done or available. Some things are done to the commonly accepted "standard du jour" of the Today.

Curt

[Charles Heath]

Re: How's my Widget?

John,

Considering how often the Moses Alexander haversack has been pawed over the years, it should be dust by now. That's funny when one realizes 99% of the reproductions of said item have the wrong button, about that same percentage has the wrong cloth, and three different sizes (at least) have come from three different "spot on" runs of reproductions in the past few years. There is always the MOC rap sheet for the item, but it has a well known whatzit included in the text.

If that wasn't enough, every single copy of a certain well known frock coat was incorrect, starting with the buttons, and ending with -- well, let's just say the original isn't the basic color of a manilla folder, so let's be nice. That whole garment run has so many problems associated with it, that the discussion could ramble into a number of threads from ethics to ripping off museums, so let's not dwell there.

What's a fashion whore concerned with what CW goodies are apearing on the runways of Paris and Milan to do? Well, in the parallel thread on this same topic, the smoking gun appears to be "listen to other folks." While many a dollar has been thrown away following campfire BS advice, a number of folks do seem to know what they are talking about, but by and large they don't haunt the internet. In fact, a heck of a lot of them are dead, or have otherwise moved on so as to become out of pocket.

To back up a bit, what about vendors who used to crank out some fantastic goods, but have since sold out to the Goddess of Economy Line Profits, and make three (or more) distinct product lines:

1. First class museum quality for their inner circle of comrades.

2. Pretty darn good reproductions for folks who tend to have a certain material culture radar reputation in the hobby.

3. Econo-grade knock offs with every corner cut and short cut taken. These are good enough for the masses of unwashed asses out there in just got HC4Xmas Land.

What about 'em? Let's just say some folks aren't producing the quality gear they were making a decade ago, and others are running on reputations that defy logic. Has anyone received a gray cartridge box recently, and wondered why the period dye formula reenacts differently with the higher acid (lower pH) of modern veggie tanned hides? There ya go. It ain't black for a good reason, folks.

A while back, we did have a nice how-to session about evaluating repops vs originals at one of our COIs at Fort Ontario. Perhaps John Tobey would care to add to this discussion. It was a nice class.

In the end, I find the guys who were amassing huge collections of in-stock gear during the heyday of the mess (2001-2004) are gone from the hobby these days, because they didn't get out and do anything with their uniforms and equipment. They ran out and bought "kewl" and "suh-weet" stuff, that didn't have much purpose or direction. Those boys never learned how to use the stuff they bought. That would be akin to a golfer with the finest clubs just letting them gather dust in the garage. Why be a repop clothing collector when the object of the hobby is to reenact something?

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: How's my Widget?

Curt & Charles,

The multi-quote feature would make my post too long, so let me just say...
Yep!

I blame the internet! ;) (kidding)

Charles, it is very interesting that you referenced the Moses Alexander haversack because it is one of the FIRST items I pondered and for the same reasons you mention. They are/have been offered by almost anyone/everyone who's ever sold a haversack. Yet, few question the various repros, despite obvious differences between the various makers.

In reference to the sliding scale mentioned by Curt:
At the end of the day, there are no perfect reproductions. Concessions are made in the interest of keeping costs down. Some materials available during the period are no longer made. Some materials are different today than they were during the period, despite being nominally the same. Some reproductions feature details that reflect the aged item after 140-some years, rather than when the item was new.

I think there are those that truly sweat the details of their impression and are (sometimes painfully) aware of the shortcomings of some/many/all of the items they use. However, the reproductions they use represent best set of compromises they can live with at the time, based on the factors listed above.

For the rest of us/them/whomever, we purchase items based on the say-so of others combined with the trust in/reputation of the vendor with little or no thought to the shortcomings that may or may not be present.

While tiresome, I think the threads discussing defarbed Enfields serve as a good illustration of how we should be scrutinizing reproductions. The threads on the LA Lorenz may be a better example. Can anyone read those threads and NOT know the concessions that have been made? I think the challenge would be to apply similar scrutiny to other areas (knowing, of course, that there are no perfect reproductions and that we should not point out the spec in another's eye without being aware of the stick in our own eye - I'm not an advocate of vendor-bashing, or any other kind of bashing, for that matter).

Why not apply the same scrutiny to RD jackets, CD jackets, great coats, or even the old Alexander haversack?

A couple thoughts:
1) I agree, the hobby happens in the field at events, not on-line or in one's closet. Get out there!!! (I'm getting better at following that advice)

2) Re: "2001-2004"... There were some heydays 5-years before that, idunno. We're in an interesting time right now to be scrutinizing reproductions. With the exit of FHW, fabric choices are down. Thank goodness CC has stepped up options to fill in the gap! However, the "good ole sources" won't be around for ever. The price of leather is continually on the rise, while sources of leather are shrinking. I heard recently that the thread used to sew cartridge boxes and all those other leather goodies we all love was in short supply. The day may come when we are forced to live with less quality (accuracy) than we enjoy today... who knows.

Pardon my rambling post... its early. Thanks all for the thoughtful replies.

[John E. Tobey]

Re: How's my Widget?

To truly know if your reproduction is "good," I think you have to do two things...

1. Know what metrics you want to use to determine "goodness." How good is good? What do you want to do with your reproduction? Do you want a repro that is good enough to fool a museum curator, or just good enough to fit in with your pards?

2. The only real way to make an accurate assessment of a repro is to physically compare it with an original. For complex devices, this would include an operational test. The best you can do otherwise is just an educated guess.

John Tobey

[Rob Weaver]

Re: How's my Widget?

I'm one of the old school guys who researches before purchasing. I like to get an idea first from the sources in my library, then from looking at museum originals. I have been blessed with a pretty good memory, so I don't get fooled too often. For some "durable goods" I head to antique stores. If you know what you're looking for, and the item in question was truly common, it's still available cheaply and you won't feel bad using it regularly. Strictly speaking of repros, I have always operated with a caveat emptor mindset with every merchant. It's my responsiblity to make sure I've acquired something both correct and correct for my impression, not theirs. That being said, I have some clothing in which corners were cut (I won't go into specific details) but they drape well and for the economics involved will suffice for the purpose for which they were purchased. I find the internet is oddly unhelpful at times, because of the unfiltered nature of the way data comes to you. You've got to wade through what you know are photos of reproductions, people's opinions of reproductions, etc, to get to the gem you're looking for.

[rbruno]

Re: How's my Widget?

I think this is a very good discussion to have. Because, after all how do you know if it is an accurate or good widget. When talking to people in my own unit, we are constanly asking, well how do you know. I think you need to read and then reread and then talk to people and then reread. In recent years, I have started doing more research then ever before. I have been in the hobby for 14 years and have gained more knowledge in the last couple the all of the others combined. Much of that comes from finding the first hand sources and getting out to talk to people that have done more research than me. So, again how do you know? Well, you gain as much information as you can, talk to people who are also knowledgeble, and hopefully get a chance to see an original widget. At a recent event, I was able to look at two widgets in the same vendor's tent made by two different people. The only way I knew that one was a better reproduction than the other is that I had seen an original widget and could pick out the flaws in one of the widgets and compliment the other and tell the person I was with that this would be the widget that I would buy.
I have started to make a widget because after wanting to improve my impression, I realized I could not afford to buy the widgets. So, I bought a book and some material and started to try to make my widget. I am on my 5th widget, and finally think I getting closer to makeing a good widget. I know this because I had the good fourtune of sitting with someone and looking at several original widgets, read several books on widgets, and also have talk to many people that have studied and made widgets also. I have found several vendors/people who are very happy to sit and shared knowledge and others that have not been so willing. I think some of the problem with making correct widgets is that there were so many different widget makers during the CW that there would technically be many different versions of the same widget. For instance, the widget I am just finishing is based on an original I viewed. Is it exact, no, but is it close and what I would say is correct, yes because I used construction techniques I have viewed in orginal widgets. Someone who never viewed the original, may say that mine is incorrect. At that point, hopefully a discussion would help both sides gain more information which would help everyone in answering the original question in this thread. So, what steps would I take, I would research, hopefully find originals, meet and talk to as many people as I can, and hopefully make an informed judgement on the widgets that are out there.

Rob Bruno