How do you motivate others or improve the hobby?

[ElizabethClark]

Re: When you can't be perfect?

I am admitedly ignorant on Zen. I just noticed a pretty lady in an 1880s outfit. :)

Absent the use of nice historic village and farm sites, we citizens may be far harder pressed to have really accurate accomodations in most situations, particularly for larger events. For smaller situations, such as Mrs. Trent's upcoming Trial at the Inn event, accomodations are available. Some great events have been had at the lovely site that Ms. Siddali has shared, and which my brain is entirely blank on right this moment, so please forgive that lapse. :)

I do heartily affirm that there are many, many period solutions to various challenges, and it's not all that difficult to research a bit and find those solutions. As Hank and Silvana pointed out, choosing low-meat or preserved-meat options for menus solves the "keep meat cool" challenge; Terre Lawson has elsewhere described a great ceramic water cooler that provides her folks with cooled drinks even in murky Southern weather, without the need for a modern cooler.

I think the big difference between the history-heavy, "progressive" end of the hobby and other philosophies is in the willingness to act on the best available information *now*, and stay flexible enough to upgrade as more information comes to light. As Ms. Peebles comments, we don't choose to settle. We keep reading and looking and examining and questioning, to see if there's more to add to our understanding of the time, more options to explore. Sometimes, new information just reconfirms what we've already known and have been doing. Other times, it challenges the conventional wisdom, we keep looking, and find information to expand the research base and refine our understanding.

[Hank Trent]

Re: When you can't be perfect?

IMHO we "soldiers" have it so much the easier. A field, a pasture, a woods can become the 1860's environment for our activities. But it limits what the "civilian" can do in or with that. Spy? Refugee? Traveller?

Well, that's true. And yet, somehow, I manage to eke out a steady variety of civilian roles, and so far haven't had to pretend a tent is a house in recent memory. Could you multiply it by tenfold or more, the same way there could be 1,000 soldiers instead of 100 in that empty field? Well, no. But then it seems for civilians right now, sites and numbers are in balance. Maybe more sites than numbers.

Here's what I've done in the last six months, not counting a couple military events. And of course, this doesn't include all the other stuff happening all around that I can't tell about only because I wasn't there, but hopefully others will chime in.

But these are some of the possibilities for civilians these days.

Christmas at Fort Gaines. Shared a stone room in an original fort, with a fireplace to cook at, with three other contract workers for the fort. I was a newly hired carpenter to supervise the building of new winter quarters, but it was Christmas, so we sang, danced, ate, drank and partied, as per an original letter describing the festivities, and I only got to draw up the plans and estimate the materials for the quarters.

Pre-trial event, where the crime took place that will be tried at the "trial" event this summer. No military, just an abandoned house I knew about, where my wife and I were going to stay while things quieted down in our life. Except, it wasn't abandoned anymore. A couple of old friends were fixing it up, and, well, long story, somebody wound up dead before it was over.

Selma, Alabama. Home of the nitre works, operating until the Yankees overran the city. It was crowded enough that one historic arsenal worker reported sleeping in his office, and we were lying low to avoid conscription in the home guard, so we camped out beside David Morgan's cool handcart, which we used each day on our rounds to pick up urine (yes, for real) and add it to our scale-size nitre bed. When the Yankees came, the home guard got us and we helped man the breastworks.

Charles Heath's C&O Canal walk. Two laborers walking from Cumberland to Harper's Ferry to look for work, camping out along the way. Yes, full scale. Started in Cumberland, finished six days and 110 miles later, just ten miles short of Harper's Ferry.

Next, in August: Linda's trial event, where jury, judge, lawyers, bailiff, witnesses and defendants hold court and stay in an inn, with other reenactors portraying inn employees. Real building, real furniture, three full period-prepared meals on the table each day.

Other all-civilian ideas with a site already available, that only need participants to set a date and sign up:

Underground railroad scenario, original route (yes, really truly, from period newspaper accounts), caves to hide in, river to swim.

Upscale recreational camping trip again, isolated location, dozens of miles of deserted trails, great scenery.

Feuding backwoods families (Brandon gets credit for that idea!). One family in dogtrot cabin, other family trespasses a bit too close. Tension, gunfire, who knows.

And it's hard to guess what plans other civilians are cooking up. Fertile field, I tell ya. Just need more folks willing to push the envelope.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Spinster]

Re: When you can't be perfect?

Glenna Jo Christensen often speaks of 'best available' when dealing with the concept of "how good is good enough?" when the perfect widget is not made--and in using the term "widget" I mean everything from hair pommade to buildings.

What one must decide is whether the trade off is worth using the 'not perfect' solution, or whether one just does without, or changes plans.

Take children's shoes for example--yes, we agree that for certain sizes, one can readily substitute a small woman's shoe, in much the same way that I shop in the boy's department for modern hunting boots because my feet are small enough for a boys size. And Elizabeth Clark has a wonderful commentary on finding pretty good substitutes for those expensive hand made shoes that the child will probably outgrow before they get to the top of the custom cobbler's wait list.

Now, in our modern hobby, the civilian population is very heavy numerically in middle aged women. A good look at the civilian population breakdown at any given event will not compare well with the variety of ages and genders in a given 1860 something community.

Now, lets add children to the mix. Lets get their clothing spot on with the exception of shoes (an industrious needlewoman can handle this nicely, and without undue expense). Lets get them a few toys and books (not hard). Lets put period glasses on a few of those children (another challenge, often more expensive than period shoes, and outgrown just as quickly). Make all these children under age 9, which pretty well puts them out of the range of 'small womens' shoes). And lets realize that the children come from a family unit where Mama and Papa are also playing, and the monetary challenges that involves especially with multiple children.

Now personally, I'd rather have the 'representative population' than worry about whether the shoes are spot on reproductions.

Or, lets look at buildings--the latest copy of Civil War Historian shows a number of pictures taken at Shaker Village at Pleasant Hill, Kentucky. And more than one tintype taken there has been a 'cover winner' here. Now, we could all wag our fingers and say " Oh, Shaker Village has electric lights, air conditioning in the buildings, hot and cold running water,flush toilets, and meals prepared in a modern kitchen, and thus is not acceptable." But we don't--and in fact, we make reservations two years in advance to make sure we've got a room. Some of us throw a blanket over the TV in the room, others stick it in the closet--and others just ignore it. And if one chooses and acts early, one might snag a house in the lower village and can go about the time without ever seeing a modern person.

Hank mentions our recent Christmas at Fort Gaines---a fine period site, but with a glaring 1890's addition (even if Katrina did wash some of that addition away)--and at the time we were also overrun by very bad 18th century pirates once we stepped outside our little brick room. The pirates quickly became 'blockade runners' in our minds--not a perfect solution, but the 'best available' one for us at the time.

Anyone who goes to the Sullivan Tavern(which will be used for Kentucky Trial in about a month) seems to fall in love with the site instantly--and what's not to love, what with period furnishings to be carefully used, from cookware to rope beds right down to the spittoons and chamber pots. I've gotten to empty and wash them on a few occassions, and it really didn't bother me that I had to empty them into the big white portalet located a few yards from the building, right by the modern picnic pavillion, and pass by a museum exhibit and modern signage on the way. For me, its a perfectly acceptable compromise to get to use a fine site.

What one can see, or know is there, or does not see or chooses to forget is a function of imagination and trade offs. Each person's mileage varies. In choosing a particular venue or methodology or site or 'best available'--realize that each of us has blind spots, and there are always folks who will strain at a gnat and swallow a camel. Make sure you are playing with folks who agree with you on where the blind spots need to be for a given event.

[Hank Trent]

Re: When you can't be perfect?

Make sure you are playing with folks who agree with you on where the blind spots need to be for a given event.

What I hate, is to see great potential wasted.

What does it matter if a column of soldiers is marching on the original route in the original woods at the original time of year on a narrow path with nothing modern in site except for some minor anachronistic insects and plants, if they're snapping pictures of each other and talking loudly about World War II?

Often it's harder to ignore the reenactors than the site.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Becky Morgan]

Re: When you can't be perfect?

What I hate, is to see great potential wasted.

What does it matter if a column of soldiers is marching on the original route in the original woods at the original time of year on a narrow path with nothing modern in site except for some minor anachronistic insects and plants, if they're snapping pictures of each other and talking loudly about World War II?

Often it's harder to ignore the reenactors than the site.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

And there you have the heart of the matter.
I couldn't even attempt to dress in period clothing because I don't see a lot of fine detail. It's not so much a vision problem as one of perception; I wouldn't notice buttonholes or the quality of thread in a bit of lace. It's there, and I accept that it matters to others; I just don't see it until someone pokes my nose in it and patiently explains what I'm looking at through the microscope. The same goes for modern intrusions in a historic place. Airplanes, traffic, power lines--not necessarily a problem; better without, but no problem with, because they're background noise.

I WILL notice loud modern cameras, non-period shouting and swearing, corn dogs on a stick, and docents or others giving blatantly incorrect information. Women in unusual places might pass, but not if they're exhibiting behaviors barely acceptable in the 21st century, and not at all acceptable in the 1860s. The Battle of Nowhere In Particular will get my attention in a bad way. Heavy gunfire with no apparent object in mind doesn't make sense in a period context, which I suppose is the final point for me: "If this is supposed to be 1863, that doesn't make sense." Attitude and depth of knowledge come though far more clearly to me than the details of dress. Too many of those details come a cropper when somebody looks at a real period photograph and says "Uh-oh...that guy really does have his pants rolled up, and so does most of his unit", or whatever. As many have pointed out, a man in beautiful gear who spends all weekend either arguing or bragging about it isn't in the moment at all.

[LindaTrent]

Re: When you can't be perfect?

I agree with a lot that Terre said. While looking for modern camping gear last night I accidentally deleted a post I started here that was about compromises that we have to make for the upcoming trial event, and Terre touched on some of it.

I think the best way to get people to ignore stuff is to let them know what to expect ahead of time and there are no surprises. Here's an example of what I sent to the event list back in April.

The interior of the "inn" is absolutely fantastic! There is one room that is a display room with glass cases and such, but the door to it remains closed at all times, and it represents the kitchen that has been destroyed by fire. The rest of the house is near perfect in regards to being fully functional with a mix of originals and the best reproductions available on the market. (Hint, Nicky Hughes is the curator. :D)

The exterior is not as pristine. There is an asphalt road that runs up and past the building, there is a plaque to one of the groups that was actually at Fort Hill in the front yard, there is an iron door over the front door, there is a modern porta potty that cannot be moved, water will be brought up probably once or twice during the event in a gator and left in modern containers that the STAFF will be responsible for going out and filling up the stone crocks and wooden buckets, and there is also a picnic pavilion, but as I said, the interior is what impresses me the most, and is why the site was chosen...

All of the event will take place inside the inn; if you want to go outside to stroll around or get some air you can go out the front and turn left onto a tanbark path that goes into the woods and gives a more period atmosphere.

As far as the trial is concerned:

The whole idea for the event came from the AC forum, by member Susan Armstrong. She thought something like this would be cool, and so did a lot of other people. I looked into it (along with some other participants) and found that something like 20 courthouses were burned in Kentucky, and that on occasion courts convened in taverns and other public buildings. Using the Sullivan House was our goal though, and what we ended up doing was keeping the event in Franklin County (a county in which the courthouse is in tact) and as such there's no reason for us to be doing the court outside of the courthouse. No 19th century one anyway. :(

One thing that our research showed us is that the 8th circuit court of Franklin County would have been meeting on October 10th (the second Monday) to hear criminal cases, and supposing that there was a good reason for court not to be held in the courthouse, I can almost guarantee you that it wasn't taken 8 miles outside of Frankfort to a tiny little inn like Mr. Sullivan runs. As inn manager I'd better add, no disrespect to Mr. Sullivan; he runs the finest inn in Peak's Mill! :tounge_sm

But unfortunately it's difficult enough to find a fully functional building where a court can be held, and a place for the participants to stay overnight within walking distance. Any site is going to have compromises, as Terre said. Besides, try organizing a stand alone civilian event where you need a bunch of guys (who usually do military) to help out in October! Just one of the busiest times of the year for reenacting.

I'm hoping that all our research at the University of Kentucky law library, will really help to add to this event. Things like outlined steps on how a trial proceeds, how to question witnesses, case citations on the laws of evidence, should all help to make for a great event. And I'm hoping that having a great trial and a great experience with the running of the inn will outweigh all the negatives of the site. It really should be a great learning experience for all, including the modern lawyers (one who will be our judge the other our sheriff) who are having a great time assisting where needed :D.

To me, when a site, situation, or person can't be perfect you try to compensate in other ways.:D

Linda.

[Hank Trent]

Re: When you can't be perfect?

Another example of a pre-event disclaimer. This was about a camping trip, which was supposed to be set in a relatively unsettled portion of 1857 Hocking County, Ohio:

From what I've seen so far, the main anachronisms or illogical things that
we'll need to deal with are:

--The usual colored diamonds on trees marking the trails, and once or twice
a day, at a trail junction in the middle of nowhere, a wooden signpost with
the trail names on it.

--Maybe one or two total footbridges over creeks (most you either have to
wade or use stepping stones). The bridges aren't glaringly anachronistic,
but who would build one supposedly in the middle of nowhere? Most of the
trails are very narrow and maintained only by cutting fallen trees, but some
of the horse trails are wider and have gravel and/or a culvert occasionally
where they tend to wash out.

--An occasional piece of modern trash along the trailside

--Signs of trail maintenance, particularly large trees that have been cut
through where they've fallen across the trail. Again, not particularly
anachronistic except for the chainsaw marks, but who would bother to keep a
wilderness footpath so carefully open?

--At the lakeside camp, there are very faint sounds of cars from the country
road about a mile away. The other campsites also have a road about the same
distance, but if the streams are flowing, they're loud enough to mask the
sound (which tells you how quiet it is). [snip info on food pickup which we didn't use]
And there are the usual sounds of airplanes.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Spinster]

Re: When you can't be perfect?

Both excellent examples of the type of information necessary for an event--and one hopes that it gets read when sent out, or that pre-event meetings are attended. Paticipants signing on to a particular event have the obligation to meet the full standards for the event, or negotiate in good faith prior to the event for any concessions they need.

I'm agreeing Hank--modern talk is far more difficult to ignore than most anything else. Closing the door on the little museum does not make it go away, and for some the knowledge that something is there is just devastating---but others realize its a perfectly acceptable compromise to use such a fine building--and I'd missed that the rooms accessed by that tiny winding staircase in the museum could still be easily accessed on the upper floor--I never found the door!

In looking at the aerial shot of Shaker Village, I can find the delightful young lady who we 'remade' earlier in the day---altered her skirt and blouse to a more fitted 'dress look' on the spot, fixed her lovely hair properly and removed the snood she had sacked it in---it was her first event of this sort, and her father had outfitted her (and like most military, didn't have clue). I can find her, not because she stands out, but because she doesn't. Her period knowledge was very good for her age, and she fully understood the need for no modern talk.

Sometimes, one just steps back and knows not everyone can do everything---I'll be child sitting during Kentucky Trial, at another nearby site, where I know I can bolt for the air conditioning if my breathing gets bad---and I can still provide support for another who is going. Excellent deal all around.

[LindaTrent]

Re: When you can't be perfect?

Closing the door on the little museum does not make it go away, and for some the knowledge that something is there is just devastating---but others realize its a perfectly acceptable compromise to use such a fine building--and I'd missed that the rooms accessed by that tiny winding staircase in the museum could still be easily accessed on the upper floor--I never found the door!

No, obviously the modern museum will always be there door open or not, but always keeping the door shut to that room is the only alternative, and as Nicky recommended that's the kitchen area where the fire was.

I dunno of any other means of accessing the Sullivan's room without passing through the museum and only those who are staying in that room and the staff should ever enter there. But again to me, that's the compromise that we make -- if we waited for the absolute perfect location, time of year, and everything else -- the trial would never be able to get off the ground.

No matter what the event, there are always compromises. Nothing is perfect which gets back to my everything's just an illusion. How good that illusion is depends upon the magician and his capabilities. You hope to have a David Copperfield and not a reject of America's Got Talent. :-)

I'd love to know alternatives. People talk about building alternatives, but there are even local ordinances that limit the amount of accuracy one can do to build a really accurate place. And if you build it, you still have to man it. Dunno what the answer is.

Linda.

[BrettKIllinois]

Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

There are certain things that are ingrained in my mind that remain as part of my impression, that I could not achieve at any reenacting camp of instruction or battalion drill. The whole aspect of standing a line and exchanging fire with the enemy has a whole new meaning to me post involvement in OEF.
Some things I have noticed that parallel my real feelings as a modern soldier and I have read about in the soldiers of the past. Volunteers of the 1860s are quite similar to the volunteer of today.
A. A common hatred for bad leadership. Making fun of poor leaders behind their backs, the class war of officer vs enlisted, and overall disdain for stupid orders.

B. Saluting / customs and courtesy. Many non military reenactors do not give the proper respect to officers when they are around.....

C. Practicality of items in your impression. Those who have been in the real field or on deployment know what items are necessary and what are not. Certain items are indispensable for good-luck, maintaining sanity, and for comfort. That transcends to the CW. Many diaries and letters have survived the war, and they had to come from somewhere. Today we use email digital cameras to keep in touch with family, the soldiers of the CW had their own way of maintaining sanity too.

These are just 3 areas, please add more to this list, lets discuss.

-Homer

OEF - JIF
"Truth through exploitation"

[edgeinwi]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

What is OEF?

[BrianHicks]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

What is a Joe?

Seriously though... from my brief time in indentured servitude to Uncle Sam, I have brought to reenacting several traits, or habits (in addition to what was listed in the above post).

A respect for, and the careful care of our weapons.

Military discipline and bearing.

Field craft.

Since I have mostly portrayed an Orderly Sgt or SgtMaj. my time in service has imparted to me some small degree of ability to work with, get men to work, and when necessary, correct men who aren't as diligent at their work as others.

The mental determination to go farther, and endure more than some fellas half my age, but whom have not been fortunate to have had their younger years molded by actual military experience.

Semper Fidelis

Brian Hicks
MSgt USMC Retired
1982-2003

[BrianHicks]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

What is OEF?

Operation Enduring Freedom.

Operation Enduring Freedom (OEF) is the official name used by the U.S. government for its military response to the September 11, 2001 attacks on the United States.

The Operation comprises several subordinate operations:

1. Operation Enduring Freedom - Afghanistan (OEF-A)
2. Operation Enduring Freedom - Philippines (OEF-P) (formerly Operation Freedom Eagle)
3. Operation Enduring Freedom - Horn of Africa (OEF-HOA)
4. Operation Enduring Freedom - Trans Sahara (OEF-TS)[3]
5. Operation Enduring Freedom - Pankisi Gorge

The term "OEF" typically refers to the war in Afghanistan. Other operations, such as in Pankisi Gorge, are only loosely or nominally connected to OEF, such as through government funding vehicles.[4] All the operations, however, have a focus on antiterrorism activities.

[BrettKIllinois]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

Operation Enduring Freedom (Afghanistan, the forgotten war)

What is OEF?

[BrettKIllinois]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

What is a Joe?

Seriously though... from my brief time in indentured servitude to Uncle Sam, I have brought to reenacting several traits, or habits (in addition to what was listed in the above post).

A respect for, and the careful care of our weapons.

Military discipline and bearing.

Field craft.

Since I have mostly portrayed an Orderly Sgt or SgtMaj. my time in service has imparted to me some small degree of ability to work with, get men to work, and when necessary, correct men who aren't as diligent at their work as others.

The mental determination to go farther, and endure more than some fellas half my age, but whom have not been fortunate to have had their younger years molded by actual military experience.

Semper Fidelis

Brian Hicks
MSgt USMC Retired
1982-2003

Joe - Slang for soldier / private in US Army.

You make some great points Brian, thank you for your contribution to this thread and service.