How do you motivate others or improve the hobby?

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

Gents-

Feel free to disagree or agree with me on this one. It's just my opinion and opinions are like rear ends- everyone has one and they all stink:



Being just out of the "real Army" and being a reenactor before I was in the military and a combat veteran (the all-too unforgotten war of OIF), I think this question is a yes and a no. I definitely feel I was helped in all the ways previously mentioned in this thread, but I feel also I was given a bit "too modern" of a mentality for an 1860's army. In this, I frequently find myself at events I've lately done being too crisp in my rifle drill, getting too easily annoyed at those that don't know basic field craft/military camping style (policing the area of trash, answering the all-important roll call/announcements in the morning, etc.). I also get pretty annoyed at those that well know of, but don't want to follow proper customs/courtesies.

Okay, I know...It sounds horribly anal, but I do confess to getting easily annoyed at those in our hobby that have never been in the real military and don't have a respect for proper military procedures. Bear in mind- NOT KNOWING or being new to the hobby is one thing that's forgivable, but knowing about important procedures that ANY military encampment (regardless or then or now) follows is just plain rude to others. Even lifelong civilians who are seasoned reenactors know of proper procedures that are common to every unit.

Just think- how many times have you had to revive a drunken comrade for morning muster? If I missed morning formation in the real military- my butt would be toast... and I was an officer. (Yes, drunk men in the ranks historically happened, but it isn't good for an event weekend. People can drink at an event- I don't care, but -too much- drunkenness is a safety issue too.)

How many times has someone in your mess or unit asked you a dumb question that could be answerable had they attended or listened at morning muster??? We all know that our units have these for our accountability as well as to pass information... even in the modern military garrison environment, we have formations to inform soldiers all the time.

But when I get annoyed, I usually bite my tongue when I see a minor infraction that was out of ignorance just so I don't ruin someone else's weekend. If someone is just being a jerk, then they need to leave. Period...

Fortunately, most hobbyists I've interracted with are pretty decent people and gentle reminding works every time.

Keep smiling.

Yours- Johnny Reb

[BrettKIllinois]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

Gents-

Feel free to disagree or agree with me on this one. It's just my opinion and opinions are like rear ends- everyone has one and they all stink:



Being just out of the "real Army" and being a reenactor before I was in the military and a combat veteran (the all-too unforgotten war of OIF), I think this question is a yes and a no. I definitely feel I was helped in all the ways previously mentioned in this thread, but I feel also I was given a bit "too modern" of a mentality for an 1860's army. In this, I frequently find myself at events I've lately done being too crisp in my rifle drill, getting too easily annoyed at those that don't know basic field craft/military camping style (policing the area of trash, answering the all-important roll call/announcements in the morning, etc.). I also get pretty annoyed at those that well know of, but don't want to follow proper customs/courtesies.

Okay, I know...It sounds horribly anal, but I do confess to getting easily annoyed at those in our hobby that have never been in the real military and don't have a respect for proper military procedures. Bear in mind- NOT KNOWING or being new to the hobby is one thing that's forgivable, but knowing about important procedures that ANY military encampment (regardless or then or now) follows is just plain rude to others. Even lifelong civilians who are seasoned reenactors know of proper procedures that are common to every unit.

Just think- how many times have you had to revive a drunken comrade for morning muster? If I missed morning formation in the real military- my butt would be toast... and I was an officer. (Yes, drunk men in the ranks historically happened, but it isn't good for an event weekend. People can drink at an event- I don't care, but -too much- drunkenness is a safety issue too.)

How many times has someone in your mess or unit asked you a dumb question that could be answerable had they attended or listened at morning muster??? We all know that our units have these for our accountability as well as to pass information... even in the modern military garrison environment, we have formations to inform soldiers all the time.

But when I get annoyed, I usually bite my tongue when I see a minor infraction that was out of ignorance just so I don't ruin someone else's weekend. If someone is just being a jerk, then they need to leave. Period...

Fortunately, most hobbyists I've interracted with are pretty decent people and gentle reminding works every time.

Keep smiling.

Yours- Johnny Reb

I understand what you are saying 100%. I am annoyed by the lack of fitness of many. On campaign there is no excuse to be waddling around the battlefield. A foot soldier impression is not complete if you are nearing obesity. It's a health risk to yourself with many events being so hot etc..

Cheers

[Rob]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

Operation Enduring Freedom (Afghanistan, the forgotten war)

The captain of one of my reenactment units has a son over there with the 10th MD. It's not forgotten here.

[WhiskeyCharlie]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

I agree with you Brett. I am an E-6 in the AF and find what ou are saying is true. I carry a leatherbound diary and a picture with me in my impression. Its heavy and takes up space in my knapsack, but I know how much keeping and writing letters helps me when far away from home. As for my impresson in camp, I enjoy not wearing any stripes. Smuggling booze into camp is a fun part of being a private.

[Hoosier Yank]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

First off, a hearty Hoosier THANK YOU to Brett and John for your service and welcome home!

I’m currently the OIF/OEF Case Manager for the Indianapolis VA Regional Office. One of my jobs is verify combat stressors as provide by the veteran for those returning OIF/OEF veterans without combat awards (i.e. CIB, CAB, and the Purple Heart to name a few).

During my career in the Navy (retired back in October 1998 as Chief Petty Officer/E-7) I was fortunate to serve during the waning years of the “Evil Empire”, I can‘t even begin to think about the horrors of combat and the lasting effects.

Often during my day at work while researching and verifying the veterans combat stressor/incident via AAR‘s, news reports, and gathering information from DoD sites, I’ve wondered to myself how a combat veteran that is also a reenactor views events after returning home.

One of my biggest faults is raising the bullshit pennant with leadership. It doesn’t matter if it work related at my current job or at an event. If you’re a piss poor leader or making a bad decision I’ll be the first one to let you know why and my reasoning behind it.

One time at a garrison event I was the senior NCO of our company at the time (I was the 2nd SGT and our Orderly SGT had not yet arrived on site) when this episode occurred. Our 2nd Lieutenant came to me at 11:30 pm Friday night and demanded that I wake every one up to have a roll call by name. I told him that thought this to be a bad idea.

My reasoning was that many folks including myself, my messmates, and many of the men in our company (from Wisconsin, Indiana, Ohio, and Michigan) had been up since 5 am, worked all day, and left immediately after work to arrive at the event. By rousing these sleeping folks wouldn’t be the right thing to do since the event didn’t go live until the next morning and we had a long weekend ahead of us with work details, drill, fatigue duties, etc... I did offer a compromise and offered to give him a numerical head count instead. I asked our 2nd LT if it was really necessary to have the names over the numbers. He couldn’t give me a valid reason other than his cry of, “Well I’m a Lieutenant and you’re the 2nd Sergeant… you will do as I say!” or words to that effect.

He was taken back when I reverted back to my days as a salty Chief Petty Officer who does not cater to dumb ideas and told him to go have a sexual encounter with himself! That pretty much ended the conversation.

I’ve had the honor to serve with Brother Hicks at events and watch him in action he truly leads by example and is an inspiration, the Corps lost a good man when he retired!

Both in during my military career and in reenacting I’ve ran across both military men and civilians that I’d follow into the gates of hell and I’ve also ran across a few military men and civilians that I wouldn’t even follow to the mess decks!

However, I do believe that military folks do have a better understanding of what it truly means to serve and what really happens behind the scenes. A few years back on this very website a heated discussion was going on about file closers not firing during battles since their was NO DOCUMENTATION! Many of loudest ones crying that file closers never fired during battle never even served in the military. I had to explain to this individual when the "you know what" hit the fan it was all hands on deck.

While I’m on this tirade another thing many civilians don’t understand is that we didn’t write (read DOCUMENT) home and tell the folks about every damn thing we did in while military, how we modified gear, wore our uniforms, etc… I never wrote to my Dad and told him about having military creases sewn into my dungaree shirt or explained to him how I folded my Dixie Cup (Navy white hat) to get a salty WWII Sailor look. Many of these same folks think just because it isn’t written down somewhere it didn’t happen or couldn’t have been so!

[BrianHicks]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

Gents-

Feel free to disagree or agree with me on this one. It's just my opinion and opinions are like rear ends- everyone has one and they all stink:



Being just out of the "real Army" and being a reenactor before I was in the military and a combat veteran (the all-too unforgotten war of OIF), I think this question is a yes and a no. I definitely feel I was helped in all the ways previously mentioned in this thread, but I feel also I was given a bit "too modern" of a mentality for an 1860's army. In this, I frequently find myself at events I've lately done being too crisp in my rifle drill,

Don't be down on yourself for being crisp, and proper in your military activities. There are numerous accounts of units that spent hours upon hours, day after day, doing drill. There is no doubt that many of the soldiers (just as today) who became crisp and sharp in their drill, if for no other reason... simply due to muscle memory.

[BrettKIllinois]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

One of my biggest faults is raising the bullshit pennant with leadership. It doesn’t matter if it work related at my current job or at an event. If you’re a piss poor leader or making a bad decision I’ll be the first one to let you know why and my reasoning behind it.
While I’m on this tirade another thing many civilians don’t understand is that we didn’t write (read DOCUMENT) home and tell the folks about every damn thing we did in while military, how we modified gear, wore our uniforms, etc… I never wrote to my Dad and told him about having military creases sewn into my dungaree shirt or explained to him how I folded my Dixie Cup (Navy white hat) to get a salty WWII Sailor look. Many of these same folks think just because it isn’t written down somewhere it didn’t happen or couldn’t have been so!

Great points. I have the same trouble at my civilian job, maybe that's why I'm leave the work force to go to college this year and work nights as a bouncer and not longer a sales/marketing/ecommerce manager. haha

Hope you meet you ya some day Chief.

I will say back in 2000 it was my reenacting pards who were prior service/national guard/ reserves who encouraged me to enlist and I even ran into one of my dirty shirt pards in Afghanistan... small world.

[Michael Comer]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

My two cents about why we don't see more military bearing at events:

I think that part of the reason many do not follow some of the military honors and ways at an event is that in the back of your mind you know the guy ordering you around is not really a captain and has no real authority over you and no one can do anything except ask you to leave if you don't want to go along with things.

I will salute and pay honors as required by regulations but I can't help thinking while doing so that this guy was just a fellow working his day job yesterday and there is really no repercussion if I don't salute. And the only authority he has over me is what I allow him to have.

No matter what we do at an event we all know in the back of our mind, that we are pursuing a hobby and we are not really in a military or combat situation and we cannot reach that level. We all know that Bill just didn't really take a mortal wound, we all know that that enemy soldier isn't really going to bayonet us. You know you don't really have to dive into that patch of poison ivy and belly crawl your way to your line with that canteen detail because nobody is really shooting real bullets at you.

I do agree that an event is better whenever everyone is following the regulations of the period but it can be hard to do when only a small percentage are doing so. How you would police that to make the event more realistic is something I'm not sure how to do.

[JimKindred]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

Folks, this is a good thread but please do not ruin it by using foul language. While this is a modern area it does not alleviate any of the rules dealing with behavior found in the other folders of the AC. Those rules still apply here.

If any of your post do contain foul language I ask you to go back and edit those portions of your post. Thank you.

[BrettKIllinois]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

My two cents about why we don't see more military bearing at events:

I think that part of the reason many do not follow some of the military honors and ways at an event is that in the back of your mind you know the guy ordering you around is not really a captain and has no real authority over you and no one can do anything except ask you to leave if you don't want to go along with things.

I will salute and pay honors as required by regulations but I can't help thinking while doing so that this guy was just a fellow working his day job yesterday and there is really no repercussion if I don't salute. And the only authority he has over me is what I allow him to have.

No matter what we do at an event we all know in the back of our mind, that we are pursuing a hobby and we are not really in a military or combat situation and we cannot reach that level. We all know that Bill just didn't really take a mortal wound, we all know that that enemy soldier isn't really going to bayonet us. You know you don't really have to dive into that patch of poison ivy and belly crawl your way to your line with that canteen detail because nobody is really shooting real bullets at you.

I do agree that an event is better whenever everyone is following the regulations of the period but it can be hard to do when only a small percentage are doing so. How you would police that to make the event more realistic is something I'm not sure how to do.

I see what you are saying as far as customs and courtesy but will link your ideas to that of a reservist. While in the reserves I had to get over the fact that all week long I was conducting major business deals and making decent wages and on the weekend I was a private and used as a janitor more than as a soldier. I also knew that my Battalion commander during the week was a pharmicudical salesman and really was my equal or lessor outside of the unit. But dispite all of that in the back of my head, I was a good soldier, because of the traditions and need for order in the ranks. Knowing that the Battalion Commander was no one special ment I'd strive hard to take his place some day, and afford him the same respect I'd expect if standing in his shoes. I could see reenacting mentality going the same way.

But this forum is about authenticity, and authenticity is more than your kit, it's your attitude and mannerisms aswell.

Cheers,

[billwatson]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

AEF Afghanistan is definitely not forgotten. Jeff Myzie of the 142nd PVI and various and sundry other units and activities just got back. His final act over there was cooking a goat over a makeshift grill, looking not unlike the most recent campaign event you've been to where rations were cooked. He's been writing for the newspaper I work for ever since his deployment, and his final goat-cooking episode runs Monday. If the moderators think it's OK to post the link for the benefit of the group, I will. Jeff is a gifted writer, and those of us with Civil War interests will immediately grasp the links between the kinds of things we read in letters home, journals and memoirs, and how Jeff wrote and structured the things he sent to us.

-------------

"While in the reserves I had to get over the fact that all week long I was conducting major business deals and making decent wages and on the weekend I was a private and used as a janitor more than as a soldier. I also knew that my Battalion commander during the week was a pharmicudical salesman and really was my equal or lessor outside of the unit."

So here's my question: As a soldier and leader, did your battalion commander (in the reserves) earn your respect? Or were you just upholding the way it has to be by respecting the rank and not the man? And either way, aren't there parallels in the hobby, just without quite so dire consequences for bad soldiering and "bullroar pennant" leadership?

[BrettKIllinois]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

Thanks Bill.

As a side not I did not mean being in the service made one better than any other living historian, I was just commenting on how being in the military personally makes one improve their impression in my case and I see it in others aswell. So by the words "better" I do not want there to be an confusion in thinking I am some sort of elitist or anything.

Cheers,

[billwatson]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

Oh, no confusion, what you said was fine, I'm just wondering if we've also managed to reenact, without quite realizing it except for those of you in the real service, the difference between those who can lead and those who want to lead and those who trick themselves into thinking they actually are leading. :-)

[Dale Beasley]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

To answer the question, does it make your impression better?...Oh Hell yes, you know it does.

This a great post one of which I have thought of so many times. My problem of which will be forever present is...keeping the two seperate. Now you can not blame a Reenactor for never being deployed, you can not blame a reenactor when he says he has "Seen the Elephant" and you can not blame a reenactor for not knowing what it is like the night before a battle or the day after one, but remember this is a hobby.

For the record it really ruins my "period moment" when someone spends the weeks prior to an event worried about essence of coffee instead of working out and getting ready physically. It really use to get to me when folks just could not keep up. Brother Hicks made mention to those "half his age:...I say amen to that...but,I have to let it go.

People have not changed much in the last 140 years, I know that being a private in reeacting is a great thing for me. It reminds me of the golden years of being a private(in the real army), the fun times, the laughing, playing jokes, poking fun, etc that goes on in the ranks, I miss that greatly.

We have to keep in mind what is important in this hobby, the impression, raising money for preservation...and during the living history or reenactment.. getting to Point A to Point B with your rifle, your feet and your colon intact, AND enjoying yourself.
Ya gotta love it.

[Dale Beasley]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

Operation Enduring Freedom (Afghanistan, the forgotten war)

Brent...no way forgotten, just a bit cooler