How do you motivate others or improve the hobby?

[M.Bene]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

I'm going to throw in my two cents here and hope I don't get lambasted for it as this is my first post. I want to say right now that I have never been affiliated with any of the Armed forces in any capacity and that I have the utmost respect for any person within the service.

I think that there's a tension on both sides of the spectrum, and I've experienced both sides. I've seen ex-soldiers within the hobby absolutely detest civilians and others because they've either never seen the elephant or because they've never been through military training. Likewise, I've seen civilians get annoyed with the "forget you, you're just a stupid civilian" attitudes that a number of ex-military folk give out. I'm not saying that either side is correct or happens all the time, but it's known to happen.

In reality, no one person is better suited to the station of reenactor than another. As far as I see it, anyway. I've seen vets that are atrocious battlefield and camp impressionists and I've seen historians that are so farby it's insane. A military background confers the acceptance of following orders and confers a background to apply the situation against. There's a difference when you have a college student being given orders or (as an NCO) giving orders with no former background other than what they're expected to do in a reenacting context than an ex-military.

In the end, I guess it's completely up to the individual with how good they are at having an impression. Its dedication that the common reenactor lacks that seperates the members of the group, not whether Ted is a retired combat artillery specialist or Frank is a life long High school janitor. If Ted and Frank are both really interested in accurate, authentic impressions and being the best they can at what they do, then they're the -same- type of person in my book. Someone seeking to do an accurate impression will do so regardless of background on the subject.

I'm a civilian. I don't have exhaustive military training, nor have I ever been under fire unless you count military simulation paintball games. But I still salute to officers when I run across them (even a few Rebs) and keep as best a military structure during the event. My unit's (unfortunately) more of a prog-mainstream than I would like, so it's generally relaxed regardless.

Ah well.

Best regards,

Marc Beneduci
76th NYSV, Co. K

[pbhatfield]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

Ref - Customs & Courtesy - Cant help but agree the issue of how we portray routine/daily/camp life where customs and courtesies shoudl abound is over looked. However, are you saying that we should salute ALL officers when they come across our camps, particularly those dreaded (Yes, I am going to say the word folks...) FARB officers who look like they have never cracked a civil war diary or piece of research or even seen an original sack coat in their life?

Sorry gang, not to be a total GRINCH but no way I am going to salute, much less try to require any of my pards to do so, or even acknowlege those guys who simply bought a pair of shoulder boards to feel important. There are way to many pretend officers who show up, especially dressed as confederate generals, who frankly dont deserve the time of day, much less the glucose my body burns off standing up and saluting one. 'Nuff said on that.

On the other hand, if there were some way to 'standardize' training and pre-requisites for officers in the hobby, i.e. when you pass an officer you dont know personally or someone who simply strolled into camp wearing shoulder boards that you arent familiar with, you would be reasonably certain they held a solid level of academic knowlege and practical skill in drill etc. to justify their rank, as well as the number of rifles in their unit to back up their 'authority' , then I would agree a 'salute' would be worth the effort.

However, as it stands, I am usually less than impressed with what I exprience with so called officers in the hobby, particularly at main stream (and even a few campaigner) events - basically, if I dont know them and am not sure they are competent, genuine leaders in the hobby, my pards and I wont be standing up.

I agree that the hobby is lax when it comes to portraying real soliders regarding camp life, customs and courtesties etc. but I think the 'barn door' may be swinging to widely on this one. Bottom line - if you are saying that in units with known, tested and solid officers that the hobby is quite lax with customs and courtesies, I agree. On the other hand, if this means we are to 'honor' any guy showing up with shoulder boards, then I say no way. It begs the question of how do we raise better officers in the hobby. I couldnt help adding my nickels worth.

And just for the record, I am also a veteran and have served in OIF in combat.
Cheers
Phil "Grinch" Hatfield

[BrianHicks]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

Ref - Customs & Courtesy - Cant help but agree the issue of how we portray routine/daily/camp life where customs and courtesies shoudl abound is over looked. However, are you saying that we should salute ALL officers when they come across our camps, particularly those dreaded (Yes, I am going to say the word folks...) FARB officers who look like they have never cracked a civil war diary or piece of research or even seen an original sack coat in their life?

Never experienced any such critters at any events that I can recall (well... not since I returned from California).

Perhaps it should be considered... the quality of the event will often influence the quality of your experience.

[DougCooper]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

Leadership in a military environment is universal - 1860's or today, so it helps me be a better reenactor officer and NCO...and perhaps just as important, a better private as well. The key is learning the particulars of 1860's style to layer on top of modern experience.

It is more rare to see an officer in this hobby who commands respect and admiration who has not been in the modern military...or some other important field as a leader. As far as I know, Dom and Steve Dunfee are not vets but they sure get it, to name two examples. More numerous are those in the hobby who have not learned that respect and admiration from the rank and file is based on knowledge, concern for the troops and good decision making...not the straps or stripes.

I submit that being an excellent hobby reenactor is difficult - no UCMJ to fall back on when all else fails ;)

As far as military bearing and courtesy - its not something one should even think about - just do it, as it is supposed to be the military. But as we all have read many, many times, if the soldiers did not respect the officer, it was transmitted to said officer with dispatch in one way or the other. So you may not like it, but you do it, out of respect for the rank if not the man. But growling about it is an art...and CW volunteers were experts.

The other things I see violated a lot in the hobby is bitching and caring. You never bitch about your superiors to the troops, nor about your troops to your superiors. You demonstrate you care by something we call LBWA - leadership by walking around...aka check on the troops, and be visible.

The other thing I think we tend to forget is US volunteers never like discipline at first, esp in the 1860's...but think of all the accounts and such you have read where an officer who was tough was initially hated but eventually respected and even greatly admired - once the volunteers realized he had made them soldiers.

So be tough - its the army way...but know your stuff...also the army way.

[billwatson]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

Another way of looking at what Phil said is this: Saluting bad reenactor officers and doing other things indicating respect may encourage them in their belief that they are adequate.

In the absence of effective screening and oversight, what else is there at our disposal except the withholding of approval?

I'm not advocating anything here. I'm just thinking out loud about the unique circumstances that conspire to make one guy who is doing it right and as he should by saluting mistakenly clue another guy that he's doing it right and as he should. :-) I'm having a really big run on irony this week.

As noted it's easier to respect the leadership at some events, I'm just thinking out loud.

[DougCooper]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

Leadership in a military environment is universal - 1860's or today, so it helps me be a better reenactor officer and NCO...and perhaps just as important, a better private as well. The key is learning the particulars of 1860's style to layer on top of modern experience.

It is more rare to see an officer in this hobby who commands respect and admiration who has not been in the modern military...or some other important field as a leader. As far as I know, Dom and Steve Dunfee are not vets but they sure get it, to name two examples. More numerous are those in the hobby who have not learned that respect and admiration from the rank and file is based on knowledge, concern for the troops and good decision making...not the straps or stripes.

I submit that being an excellent hobby reenactor is difficult - no UCMJ to fall back on when all else fails ;)

As far as military bearing and courtesy - its not something one should even think about - just do it, as it is supposed to be the military. But as we all have read many, many times, if the soldiers did not respect the officer, it was transmitted to said officer with dispatch in one way or the other. So you may not like it, but you do it, out of respect for the rank if not the man. But growling about it is an art...and CW volunteers were experts.

The other things I see violated a lot in the hobby is bitching and caring. You never bitch about your superiors to the troops, nor about your troops to your superiors. You demonstrate you care by something we call LBWA - leadership by walking around...aka check on the troops, and be visible.

The other thing I think we tend to forget is US volunteers never like discipline at first, esp in the 1860's...but think of all the accounts and such you have read where an officer who was tough was initially hated but eventually respected and even greatly admired - once the volunteers realized he had made them soldiers.

So be tough - its the army way...but know your stuff...also the army way.

[DougCooper]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

Another way of looking at what Phil said is this: Saluting bad reenactor officers and doing other things indicating respect may encourage them in their belief that they are adequate.

In the absence of effective screening and oversight, what else is there at our disposal except the withholding of approval?

I'm not advocating anything here. I'm just thinking out loud about the unique circumstances that conspire to make one guy who is doing it right and as he should by saluting mistakenly clue another guy that he's doing it right and as he should. :-) I'm having a really big run on irony this week.

As noted it's easier to respect the leadership at some events, I'm just thinking out loud.

Take them aside after the event or during a private moment - with help. but perhaps the best way is the way the original soldiers did it - with cat calls, donkey (jackass braying) and other less than complimentary rank and file verbal and non-verbal feedback

[BrettKIllinois]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

Interesting discussion. Through my reading there were many horrible officers in the 1860s, and my experience there are just as bad officers in the ranks today. Not all officers, but there are some that are not real leaders and are not even decent people.

That being said in the Army I couldn't pick and choose which ones I saluted.

There is no reason to salute all the miraid of officers that appear around evening time when the ball begins. All others though, well it's a valid discussion. Pinning on the rank you bought at sutler row is similar to mommy and daddy buying your college education and you signing up for rotc IMHO. It is the reputation you make with the rank, with actions and decisions that leaves the impression of a man/woman in my humble mind.

Great discussion though, thank you for the contributions.

[BrianHicks]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

.....

In the absence of effective screening and oversight, what else is there at our disposal except the withholding of approval?

what else is there at our disposal ..... ?

For me... it's simple. I'm wary of going to an event, or registering to participate in some individual's companies at an event due to the quality (or more specifically... the lack there of) of their leadership. And yes... I have chosen not to participate in events, or sign up for some companies at events, based on who is organizing, or leading at that event. Fortunately, where I'm at, there are still enough quality events to keep my schedule more than busy enough for me.

[BrettKIllinois]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

The other things I see violated a lot in the hobby is bitching and caring. You never bitch about your superiors to the troops, nor about your troops to your superiors. You demonstrate you care by something we call LBWA - leadership by walking around...aka check on the troops, and be visible.
.

Great point Doug. This is my biggest complaint in civilian business as well.
If you are a leader you no longer have the ability to be "one of the guys." This is a lesson the applies everywhere!

[Dale Beasley]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

[QUOTEIf you are a leader you no longer have the ability to be "one of the guys." This is a lesson the applies everywhere![/QUOTE]

Two things, One that is why I like being a private, Two, I never really notice any officer over the rank of my Company Commander. I never salute even then, unless I am reporting. (am I right or wrong?)

Does being in the reenacting field apply in the same sence as it does say "Over-There" where it is not good to get saluted?

[BrettKIllinois]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

Well there is no reason to salute in the field either way. I'm sure I have read that before about the cw as in now.

[1986jjack]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

Being new to the hobby, I am most appreciative when a more seasoned re-enactor points out my oversights. This learning is most necessary, especially with not having the benefit of basic training cast upon me. Yours, most humbly. Pvt.John Jackson

[pbhatfield]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

My point is simple - I admittedly digressed from the original question a bit - but i will re attack once for the fun of it - after a few years in the ole hobby barnyard and serving in the real military, I would not pretense so much as to assume all officers know their stuff - they do not. I stand by what I said - I refuse to salute those who strut around full of pretense and other less mentionables, and totally miss the mark in general impression areas. If they dont know what they are doing they shouldnt be there, period. Have you really ever tried to just take one of those guys aside and give them a lecture on whats wrong with their impression? Are you kidding me? Come on gang...you know better. Many of those types KNOW they are doing stuff wrong, and I know plenty of them who are rigid, nay even arrogant about it because they have some kind of negative 'I am just gonna tell you campaigners that you cant tell me what to do' attitude they are dealing with. I gave up trying to fix that stuff years ago. I just mind my own business so long as they dont want me to salute them :)

But seriously folks, You can easily discern whether they have done their homework. I get the idea that the hobby could use more discipline in our scenarios, but then again, if I am hearing some of these comments correctly, it almost sounds as if a sort of blind, mechanical acceptance of the officer authority is being called for in order to accurately represent the civil war soldier - My opinion is that nothing could be further from the truth for the majority of original solider diaries and letters I have read.

Yes, they submitted by and large, but in no way was their demeanor excessively submissive or 'hooah' to couch it in modern parlance. See my article posted in the research archives on the 4th NC at Seven Pines and hear what Ashbel Fraley has to say about the subject for a good starting point - the data better indicates that they had their share of reservations particularly with officers whom they had known for years back home. There is a subtle dynamic played out in their accounts that suggests the contrary is another way of putting it.

I should clarify that if the scenario calls for it, I will salute, farb and all so long as they are in a given scenario appropriate role. That is just simply what we are supposed to be doing.

For the record, I think there may have been some misinterpretation - I didnt say that there werent any good officers in the hobby. There are. And there are times a good first person scenario requires a salute - but one of the ideas I am trying to sell here is that we dont spend the entire weekend in first person at most events, and when we are all in leisure mode, and some guy struts through camp in shoulder boards and doesnt measure up, it isnt going to happen. At an immersion event or appropriate scenario it should be, and is different, on the other hand as that situation assumes they know what they are doing or wouldnt be there to begin with. That unfortunately, has sometimes also been my experience. You have to see the difference for my text to make sense.

I do agree and believe that having been in the service and even combat can help one understand the depth of experience available to a CW troop, - to the degree that you know what real ordnance feels like etc. And not all us have PTSD - some people actually dealth with it pretty good. That is another discussion altogether.

I am simply not sure I agree there is that strong of a correlation between modern 'army' discipline and mindset, and the CW era - read over the multiple accounts written by soliders of the 1860s that had little, if any respect for the army ways- they were volunteers, and totally ridiculed it most of the time. Check out the diary I referred to earlier as only 1 example, but a good one none the less, and see if there isnt some truth in this.

My take on the matter is that to get ones portrayal of the historic solider right,
one can ONLY do it by reading, reading and then reading more original sources, and experiencing similiar things as they did. If you happen to have a little modern experience, it can enhance the portrayal I think, but I dont believe it is a neccesary or even sufficient condition for accurate portrayal of an 1860's solider.

I will agree that some of the real life modern military modus operandi applies, i.e there is something to be said for first person scenarios where you have to just 'suck it up' and marching 8 miles when you really dont want to, but unless everyone agrees to sign waivers and submit to the UCMJ, and hence submit to any Henry or Tom who shows up with shoulder boards, we have to get better at training and selecting officers.

Another angle is that instead of trying to fix the hobbies leaderhsip problems, lets apply for a grant to send everyone to psychotherapy for trying to impersonate soliders who died 146 years ago...we all need help. At least that is what my ex wife thought. But then again, maybe that is why I fired her.

Cheers everyone.
Phil "Grinch" Hatfield

[Rob]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

I salute the rank, not the man. Failure to salute is a reflection on both parties. Even if Colonel So-and-so doesn't know what he's doing, I would like for folks to think that I do.

(Whether or not I have to grit my teeth while doing it is a whole other kettle of fish...)