How do you motivate others or improve the hobby?

[Hoosier Yank]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

I salute the rank, not the man. Failure to salute is a reflection on both parties. Even if Colonel So-and-so doesn't know what he's doing, I would like for folks to think that I do.

(Whether or not I have to grit my teeth while doing it is a whole other kettle of fish...)

In the real world yes!

At the 15th Annual Bugtussle Bluegrass Festival and Civil War Days… NO WAY unless that person is truly worthy of the respect.

Here in in my neck of the woods you can attend any mainstream event and find whole bushel basket of these buffoons wearing shoulder straps. We even have one that portrays a Navy Commander and his ships compliment… one lonely Jack Tar!

Salute the CW rank… That’s funny! Just who signed their commission?

My last command prior to retiring was Naval Special Warfare Group TWO (Atlantic Fleet SEAL Team HQ). We had a detachment at Fort Pickett, VA for our SEAL Tactical Training folks there. One of my shipmates who worked there told me funny story.

One year they decided to hold some national CW reenactment at Fort Pickett. The Public Affairs Officer (PAO) was jumping through fiery hoops because some self appointed idiot of a CW unit was calling his office and giving his CW rank and wanting to know about hotels in the area, or camp sites, etc… This happened on several occasions.

Finally the PAO wised up and before going any further rolling out the military customs and honors he would ask… “Are you a reenactor?”

[Dale Beasley]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

Guys,

In reenacting, I have never been asked to salute but once, it was at Tunnel Hill, I just ignored him and he went away.

[Michael Comer]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

Just who signed their commission?

Just the point I was poorly trying to make with my comments early on in this thread.

There is no commission with that reenacting officer of course. Now, whether you're active duty or reserve in the real world, that officer has something a little more solid behind him that gives him the authority to be an officer and there are definite repercussions if protocol is not followed.

That is not so in the reenacting field. I understand that in the reserve, the fellow you are saluting during the weekend drill just came from his regular job just like a reenacting officer did but, there is a big difference when it comes to the authority that fellow has and Capt. Crumbpecker has at the Battle of Chamberpot event. Crumbpecker is not a real officer - he only has the authority for the weekend because we, as a whole, allow him to. If you are with your Guard unit for a weekend, that guy does have the real authority that has been granted him. If he's a lousy officer, you still have to salute him. At an event I don't think you do.

I will do the saluting etc at an event but it depends a lot on the event and whether it is immersive or an LH or just the typical shoot and fall down thing. But, even at those, I will follow protocol if I am with a campaigner unit that is trying to have a semi-immersive experience.

The ones that really kill me is when you see these clowns on sutler row saluting every Lee or Grant poser that comes by. Please, don't encourage those goobers!

[BrettKIllinois]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

I am simply not sure I agree there is that strong of a correlation between modern 'army' discipline and mindset, and the CW era - read over the multiple accounts written by soliders of the 1860s that had little, if any respect for the army ways- they were volunteers, and totally ridiculed it most of the time. Check out the diary I referred to earlier as only 1 example, but a good one none the less, and see if there isnt some truth in this.

But that's exactly how myself and many of my fellow soldiers feel about today's army we are volunteers, and some of these army ways are just rediculous. I really think spending a year of your life on a XXXX deployment gives great refference for portraying a disgruntled CW soldier and is where I draw inspiration from.

So I agree with your point but think that it reins true for todays private aswell.

[BrettKIllinois]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

I think I have heard that quote somewhere... hahaha... band of brothers?

What do all of your think about these rules for saluting:
A. You don't salute in the field unless you want to get the officer killed.
B. Salute when it is appropriet for appropriet officers.
C. Self proclaimed, just saw gettysburg on dvd and bought myself this generals outfit are no different than any other spectator at an event and should be ignored in order to maintain first person. Interacting with them would be no different than buying a funnel cake from the 17yearold zit faced kid that's been smoking pot all day in one of those carnival tents filled with typical street fest food. That kid isn't any different than that self proclaimed general etc.. etc.

I salute the rank, not the man. Failure to salute is a reflection on both parties. Even if Colonel So-and-so doesn't know what he's doing, I would like for folks to think that I do.

(Whether or not I have to grit my teeth while doing it is a whole other kettle of fish...)

[BrettKIllinois]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

“Are you a reenactor?”

Thank you for that great laugh!

Cheers to the seals. I worked with a couple of great seal-intel guys for a short while in Afg, grade A top class warriors, I have the upmost respect.

[BrettKIllinois]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

The ones that really kill me is when you see these clowns on sutler row saluting every Lee or Grant poser that comes by. Please, don't encourage those goobers!

Those lee and grant posers are no different than spectators IMHO, and I wouldn't salute a spectator.

[LibertyHallVols]

BS Salutes and Stolen Glory

At my first picket post event ever, I was a bit nervous about "doing the right thing"... or maybe just not doing anything too stupid.

Ivan Ingraham was protraying the Lt. in command of my platoon. As he approached my post on his first rounds of the picket posts, I came to attention and saluted him. Without missing a beat, Ivan barked, "We're not guarding Washington, Mr. Wickett, there's no need to salute me here!".

Not only was it flawless first person, but it snapped me into the right mindset for the event. Ivan is a Marine Officer and one of the most outstanding human beings I've met in the hobby or elsewhere. His statement to me sets the bar for behavior of those who portray officers in our hobby, in my opinion.

I've never served, but two things make me feel uncomfortable:
1) Saluting a member or veteran of our armed services outside of a living history scenario. To me, that is an honor paid by military personnel, to military personnel. I'm not a member of that club and I'd rather not be seen as a poser.

2) Being "ordered" by a reenactor officer to salute at a time/place that is not warrated by the scenario. IMHO, that amounts to "stolen glory", and to hell with that and the self-important baffoons (hmmm... how many f's in "baffoon"?) that do that! :angry_smi If you're seeing that at an event, you're probably attending the wrong events!

I usually stay away from posting on this folder (this is YOUR place... and, like I said, I'm not a member), but I thought the incident/observation was relevant.

Jim: Feel free to delete this if you like, no problem.

Thanks, Gents!

[BrettKIllinois]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

Thanks for the post John.

[Texyank]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

But that's exactly how myself and many of my fellow soldiers feel about today's army we are volunteers, and some of these army ways are just rediculous. I really think spending a year of your life on a bullshit deployment gives great refference for portraying a disgruntled CW soldier and is where I draw inspiration from.

Brett,

I think this is universal throughout all branches of the service and you could probably find accounts of centurions griping about Caesar if you look hard enough.

I tell people I am almost in the military (USCG). But, I think that the experiences of camaraderie, cynicism, and mischief transcend branch/type of service experienced. Some aspects (being shot at) can't be replicated and God bless you for placing yourself in harm's way to protect us.

I have been on both sides of fence and I think my enlisted service gave me a serious leg up over officers from the academy.

My rule of thumb as an officer is to not take myself too seriously, look after the folks I am responsible for and ensuring my sense of responsibility is always stronger than my sense of privilege.


Yer Pard,

Jason Hamby

USCG - Uncle Sam's Confused Group

[Rob]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

In the real world yes!

But aren't we supposed to be portraying the "real world"? Is that not what this forum is all about? If not, I've been sadly misinformed.

If you're at a spectator-type event, the general public probably doesn't have a clue as to whether or not Colonel So-and-so knows what he's up to, but even the dumbest among them knows that an enlisted man should salute him. If that enlisted man fails to do so, how realistic-looking is that?

Follow your own bent on this, but I fail to see what the big problem is. It only takes a second to do, and it helps to maintain the illusion that we're all supposed to be striving for.

[BrianHicks]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

Rob,

Have you ever served in one of the branches of the Armed Forces?

Why do I ask? Honestly? I think that some of of us (perhaps most) whom have served, have a real reluctance to render salutes to idiots, and others who simply don't rate. This tendency also held true for some, while on Active Duty.

I feel the same way about saluting the Confederate National Flag at morning formations were the standard is raised on a pole. Even though it's just a reenactment, I am hesitant, even in pretend, to render some honors to some things, after having served and sacrificed for this great Nation of ours, and the Flag which represents it. Same goes to those who dress up as an Officer, but have no idea how to truly represent themselves as such.

Perhaps some of that lifetime of Brain Washing the service provided to me, is slow in being put aside.

[M.Bene]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

But isn't that kind of an overly elitist attitude in a hobby that you should strive for perfection in through an impression? "I've served in [Insert service branch here], so that gives me more of a right to decide what's worthy of saluting to" is the whole feeling I'm getting here.

As far as I'm concerned, if there are idiots that hold rank in the Service that you didn't want to salute but were forced to through regulations it holds just as true for the 1860's. If there's a private and the private sees a ranking officer, and regulations state he must be saluted then there's no excuse why it shouldn't be done. You don't not do it becuase you don't like the fact he's an idiot. To do so based on the fact that said private served in one of the modern military branches and doesn't think it's appropriate on that alone is an anachronism and is just as farby as the yokels that go out in jeans and sketchers to burn some powder.

That's not to say I don't think something needs to be done. Honestly, I would prefer it for officers to go through an Officer School to learn the ropes and if they don't pass the school, they are disallowed from attending certified events as an officer. The same holds true for NCOs. I've seen too many fools go out, buy some stripes or bars and sew them on their jacket and fall in the next day as a Lieutenant or something. And I've fallen in during a reenactment under someone who was exceedingly dangerous and a hazard to the event. I think I walked on that one.

[BrianHicks]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

But isn't that kind of an overly elitist attitude in a hobby that you should strive for perfection in through an impression? "I've served in [Insert service branch here], so that gives me more of a right to decide what's worthy of saluting to" is the whole feeling I'm getting here.

As far as I'm concerned.. no. At least that's not the intent behind my conscious choice on not salute at certain times, or to some reenacting Officers whom I have come to know as... well... less that adequate for the impression they are supposed to be doing. If others seem to feel that this attitude is being overly elitist... all I can answer with is... perhaps if they knew better what this particular action is born from, perhaps then they'd have a better understanding.

For me... some things aren't so easily put aside when putting on a reenacting uniform, and performing reenacting activities.

It appears that there are a few other Veterans who share this with me, while there are other Veterans whom have no issue on this matter at all. We've each been indoctrinated in different ways by our individual experiences in Service. How those experiences have influenced how we portray our impressions will vary widely from man to man. I don't expect everyone else to act as I do, or to even agree with it, but I don't necessarily appreciate being challenged for how those experiences have influenced my reenacting activities. After all.... it means very little in the bigger scheme of things. Feel free however, at any event at which you feel I should have rendered a salute, but failed to do so... to approach me on the issue. These forums fail to provide an adequate means to share and discuss some things in depth. Sometimes a face to face discussion might prove far more effective.

As far as I'm concerned, if there are idiots that hold rank in the Service that you didn't want to salute but were forced to through regulations it holds just as true for the 1860's. If there's a private and the private sees a ranking officer, and regulations state he must be saluted then there's no excuse why it shouldn't be done. You don't not do it becuase you don't like the fact he's an idiot. To do so based on the fact that said private served in one of the modern military branches and doesn't think it's appropriate on that alone is an anachronism and is just as farby as the yokels that go out in jeans and sketchers to burn some powder.

An anachronism? Hardly. Lesser ranks refraining from saluting a senior Officer (for whatever reason) is not a modern activity. This type of insubordination has been going on to some degree or another... most likely since pre-Roman times. Now... I don't recall the precise reference, but I've read of more than one account in a diary, or historical narrative, were a Civil War soldier related how so-and-so of an Officer was not worthy of a Salute, and often the men wold not honor him with such as he passed. I also recall the records of a Courts martial in which the defendant stated that he refused to salute the Officer, because he knew the Officer to be no Gentleman, and unworthy of a salute.

Now.... can we get back towards the original intent of this thread, which I understood to be... how being a Veteran has influenced some of the ways, and things you do as a reenactor, vice going back and forth on why some us have developed some idiosyncrasies that others think detract from the hobby?

[Dale Beasley]

Re: Does being a modern Joe make you better at your impression?

"Now.... can we get back towards the original intent of this thread, vice going back and forth on why some us have developed some idiosyncrasies that others think detract from the hobby?"-Brother Brian Hicks

Now, I never thought I would jump in on this one, since I am ususally stiring the "Brown Spoon". But Guys, Brother Hicks is right.

Three ways I think that being a modern Joe makes our impression better.

1. We are in shape, and know the importance in keeping that way.
2. We have Military Bearing, and we know the importance in keeping it that way.
3. We get double the pleasure when we are reenacting becasue we can see it as a hobby, and we know the importance in keeping it that way.

And one more for the good of the order, we as veterans can look out for the safety of the non-veteran reenactor, becasue....we know the importance in keeping it that way.

Now, guys I want to hear your three reasons.